NIH Paylines & Resources
Rather than keep adding posts to the blog about NIH paylines, I’ll update this page as ICs revise their funding strategies; I’ve also included links to “cleared concepts” (i.e., potential funding initiatives approved by the IC’s Advisory Council for future development into PAs or RFAs) and to IC program contacts (program officers). Those ICs that traditionally do not publish payline or percentile guidance are indicated by “no payline data available” (& none probably ever will be). Last updated: 23 November 2009 (operating under Continuing Resolution and hence FY09 funding levels until appropriation bill is passed)
NB: I will update this page as updated paylines reflecting the new scoring system are released. In the meantime, you can find details on the scoring procedure and interpretation as well as reviewer guidelines by mechanism at the Enhancing Peer Review Website.
NIH Institutes & Centers
(descending order of budget, percentiles for established/new PIs)
NCI ($4.8B): FY09 payline at 12th percentile for type 1/2 R01s, 17th for new investigator R01s, 12th for R21s, priority score up to 200 for R03s, priority score 175 for R15s
NCI cleared concepts
NCI program contacts
NIAID ($4.3B): FY10 interim payline for R01 at 6th percentile and at 10th for new investigators; no other FY10 interim paylines available … FY09 paylines were: new investigator & ESI R01 at 25th, R03 & R21 at 137, R15 at 160, F31 at 145, F32 at 136, K other than K99 at 165, R41/42 (STTR) at 150, R43/R44 (SBIR) at 210, T32 at 139
NIAID ARRA Paylines: 25th percentile for R01s, 200 priority score for R03s & R21s, 225 for F mechanisms
NIAID cleared concepts
NIAID program contacts
NIAID Paylines (historic data by year and mechanism)
NHLBI ($2.9B): FY10 payline
for established PI R01/U01 at 16th percentile for A0, 12th percentile for A1 (first amended resubmission), 10th percentile for A2; ESI at 5 percentile points above R01 payline; for R03/R21 at 16th percentile; P01 at impact score 25; and P01 subproject at 35; rest TBD (FY09 paylines for comparison: 40th for F31/F32 applications; 170 priority score for K & T applications; 140 for STTR; 190 for SBIR)
Rebalancing FY10 Success Rate (>60% A0 applications funded)
NHLBI cleared concepts (click on most recent Council minutes, see proposed initiatives)
NHLBI program contacts
FY10 Policy Changes: “The special payline policy for non-ESI [new investigators] will be phased out in FY 2010. In addition, ESI applications on which all named principal investigators are ESI investigators that are >5 but <=10 percentile points above the regular R01 payline may undergo an expedited review to resolve comments in the summary statement."
NIGMS ($1.9B): no payline data available (target FY08 success rate is 22%, down from ~32% in FY07)
NIGMS cleared concepts (click on most recent Council minutes)
NIGMS program contacts
NIDDK ($1.8B): FY09 “nominal” payline of 17th/19th percentiles (please take note of the NIDDK-specific guidance for planning/developing R21 applications)
NIDDK cleared concepts
NIDDK program contacts
NINDS ($1.5B): FY08 payline at 10th percentile (unspecified higher percentiles for new investigator & high-priority applications, up to 20th percentile for RFA/PAS applications, overall 18% success rate targeted)
NINDS ARRA Payline: 25th percentile for R01s, R03s, R15s, R21s
NINDS cleared concepts (click on most recent Council minutes)
NINDS program contacts
NIMH ($1.4B): FY09 payline up to 20th percentile, program discretion (see main link for details on research funding priorities; training funding priorities here)
NIMH cleared concepts
NIMH program contacts
NICHD ($1.2B): FY08 gives new investigators a 5-percentile break, with special consideration to new investigator research grant applications from NICHD K awardees (no base payline provided)
NICHD cleared concepts
NICHD program contacts
NCRR ($1.1B): FY09 funding policy)
NCRR cleared concepts (click on presentations or minutes of most recent meeting)
NCRR program contacts
NIA ($1.0B): FY09 payline for R01s at 11.6th percentile for established investigators, 16.6th for new investigators, 23.1th for ESI
NIA program contacts and priorities (click through most relevant branch)
NIDA ($1.0B): no payline data available
NIDA program contacts (click on relevant Division)
FY10 Budget Request
NIEHS ($720M): no payline data available
NIEHS cleared concepts (click on latest Council minutes)
NIEHS program contacts (click on relevant area in org chart)
NEI ($667M): no payline data available, though they will “be cautious in making competitive awards” (policy info here)
NEI cleared concepts (click on latest Council minutes)
NEI program contacts
NIAMS ($509M): FY09 paylines at 15th percentile for Type 1/2 R01s, 18th percentile for new investigators, 15th percentile for R21s, 160 for R03s, 149 for K01/K02/K08/K25s, 163 for K23/K24s, 154 for K99s, 180 for F31/F32/F33s, 137 for T32s, 185 for SBIR
NIAMS cleared concepts (click on latest Council minutes)
NIAMS program contacts (click on relevant scientific area)
FY10 Budget Request
NHGRI ($495M): 2009 Final Funding Policy for NHGRI, which offers no payline but cites priority for funding of: research project/center applications that focus on (1) technology development and methods development and (2) ELSI topics relevant to the Institute’s objectives will be strongly favored; K awards will be given to individuals in: (1) non-biological sciences such as chemistry, computer science, engineering, math, physics and other quantitative sciences who wish to pursue multi-disciplinary approaches to problems in genomics research or and (2) physicians who wish to pursue genomics or proteomics research; F awards will be given to individuals wishing to pursue (1) the development of genomics and proteomics technologies and (2) Institute-relevant ELSI topics in interdisciplinary research environments. (most projects to be funded for 3 years, with 4-5 years for early stage investigators)
NHGRI cleared concepts (click on most recent meeting agenda & documents)
NHGRI program contacts (click on relevant program)
FY10 Budget Request
NIAAA ($444M): no payline data available, though “new Investigators just beyond the NIAAA nominal payline are invited to submit a letter to respond to the summary statement critique” & the estimated success rate is 25%
NIAAA cleared concepts (click on most recent Council minutes)
NIDCD ($401M): “Percentiled R01 applications will be supported based on a case-by-case review of grant applications by program directors”
NIDCD cleared concepts
NIDCD program contacts
NIDCR ($396M): FY09 strategy but no payline data available
NIDCR cleared concepts
NIDCR program contacts
NLM ($326M): FY10: For experienced investigators, applications with scores 30 or better are the most likely to be funded. ESI & NI seeking their first R01 research grant and K99 applicants with scores of 45 or better will be considered for funding.
NLM cleared concepts
NLM program contacts
NIBIB ($303M): FY09 payline at 19th/24th percentile for established/new investigator R01s, 19th percentile for R21s, R03 & R15 priority score below 170, total of 5 K99/R00 awards to be made, priority score below 150 for SBIR
NIBIB ARRA Paylines: 25th percentile & priority score below 185
NIBIB cleared concepts (click on most recent minutes)
NIBIB program contacts
NCMHD ($203M): no payline data available (traditionally no funding policy is posted for this Center)
NINR ($139M): “Council and program staff may selectively recommend the payment of grants out of priority score order based on Institute mission and priorities and to maintain a diverse and balanced portfolio” (estimated success rate of 18%, but no payline/priority score guidance provided)
NINR program contacts
NCCAM ($122M): FY10 payline pending [FY09 payline at 15th percentile/<170 priority score or better and within the 15-20th percentile (R21 at priority score of 140 or better); new investigators at 180 or better and within 25th percentile; overall success rate ~12%]
NCCAM cleared concepts
FIC ($15M budgeted for new awards during continuing resolution period): no payline data available (FY09 success rate est at 10-15%)
Other Resources
NIH Advisory Council Meeting Dates (all ICs)
NIH Funding Strategies
Funding Priorities by IC (links from Biennial Report of the Director)
NIH Paylines & Percentiles explained
NIH Success Rates
NIH Award Data
NIH Budget Allocation by Disease/Disorder
Einstein School of Medicine (excellent resource)
Timeline for Implementing New Grant Application Submission & Review Policies</a
Jatinder Lamba said
when will NCI annouce their FY08 paylines for regular and star R01s
See update above … 14th/19th percentiles for established/new PI R01s (type 1 & type 2). – writedit
Councils Clearing Concepts « Medical Writing, Editing & Grantsmanship said
[...] in my spare time (tee-hee-hee), I’ll create a dynamic resource page similar to the one for Paylines that provides links to the various IC cleared concept clearinghouses. Or maybe I’ll just add [...]
RGP said
NIA has posted their payline — 18th percentile for New Investigators and 13th percentile for seasoned brave souls:
http://www.nia.nih.gov/GrantsAndTraining/Policies/Funding_Policy_current.htm
Years won’t be cut but app. 18% will be lopped off the top. I’m ok with that — I think I’d rather have the full five years.
Payline is established but I wonder how long my grant will sit in the ERA Commons with the note: “To Be Paid”. I am so happy about the “To Be Paid” rather than “Pending” but it would be nice to for the NOA to come though….*sigh*
Thanks for lending a hand here, RGP!! I like the use of the qualifier “about”. I’ll run down the entire list for updates at COB on Feb 6. – writedit
Vassiliki Karantza-Wadsworth said
Your site is very informative!
Could you please let me know as soon as you have the information what the funding cut-off will be for NCI’s Howard Temin Pathway to Independence Award for the applications that were submitted last June?
Thank you,
Vassiliki
Payline Update - NIAID T32 update « Medical Writing, Editing & Grantsmanship said
[...] 17, 2007 at 3:07 pm · Filed under Payline Update: Please see the NIH Paylines & Resources page for the latest [...]
How to Prevent Grant Funding « Medical Writing, Editing & Grantsmanship said
[...] April 2, 2008 at 12:55 am · Filed under Biomedical Writing/Editing, Grantsmanship, NIH Advice Okay … a little help here, and this is no April Fool’s. I need to come up with 45 min worth of what not to do if you want to get funded. I could come up with dozens and dozens of bullets like this, and I have priceless gems from actual narratives that I couldn’t possibly make up if I tried. But I really am interested in what fatal flaws crop up in the routine grant-writing life of a reagent-quality scientist. When I’m all done in a few weeks, I promise to slap it up as a resource page (like NIH Paylines & Resources). [...]
A random scientist said
Is there a discrepancy in the NCI paylines for 2008? the website you mention here says 14/19 and then there is a news circulating at :
http://www.cancerletter.com/tcl-blog/copy38_of_whats-going-on-with-nih
Any thoughts on this? I am assuming that what is on NCI website is more accurate, but just wanted to see whats happening.
Thanks!
Hmmm. I’m loathe to change my figure above, which is based on the publicly available information at NCI. I even more loathe to pay $75 for a one-day pass to read the rest of that article. Looking at the NCI Director’s Report from the Feb 5 Council meeting, however, it seems that the standard R01 percentile is at 12.0, with the large award R01s (>$700K) at 14.0. Or at least they were for the first 2 cycles. Now, looking at Dr. Neiderhuber’s slide notes, I can see the percentile for R21s is 14.0 and the priority scores are set at 210 (?!!?) for R03s and 155 for R33s. Who knew R03s were so easy here? There is also an asterisked “R01s: 19th percentile (will hit NIH target)”, which could be intended for new investigators, but I don’t want to call it that without clarification. Thanks for the heads-up, Random Scientist! I’ve corrected the figures above. – writedit
A random scientist said
See I am not sure either — the council says one thing but the publicly available website says another — plus what does large grants mean? 700K per year?
These would essentially be clinical studies (not necessarily clinical trials, but any research involving human subjects involves a lot more personnel and expense). – writedit
A random scientist said
Just to add to the confusion I have already created, the following website is apparently for spring 2008 – from NCI — and I feel was updated sometime this spring (maybe after the NCI director’s comments) — it says 14 percent as well?!?!?
http://www.cancer.gov/cam/newsletter/2008-spring/5.html
Well, this looks to be a generic comment (& yes, paylines are moving targets, especially with all the program latitude) and clearly harkens back to what is on the main NCI funding strategy Website. Of course, grants submitted in Feb/March and being reviewed now will be funded according to the FY09 paylines, which won’t be decided until next March at least … maybe not until next summer (elections, inauguration, etc. = lots of continuing resolutions). I’d say anything in the 12-14th percentile is in the gray zone at best. Funding at the 12th percentile is actually not that bad compared with other ICs. – writedit
A random scientist said
So I called up NCI today — and they said that it is 14.0 percent and the director made an error in stating its 12%.
As you may have guessed, the reason I am really interested in this is because my score falls between 12-14%
with the budget council meeting next week deciding on the fate of the grant — but while yesterday was a tough day, I was reassured by NCI today that it is indeed 14%, so I should be fine.
Okee-dokee … correction noted above. See what a motivated PI can learn, folks? Thanks & congratulations, random scientist. – writedit
KL said
Hi there,
Does anyone know what the most current payline for an R03 grant is for NIMH? Are all R03’s decided according to their scores rather than percentiles?
I have a score of 149 for an R03 assigned to NIMH and Roadmap. What do you think about my chance?
KL (Aug 1st, 2008 )
As I explained to KL, the current paylines are for FY08, whereas applications being scored now will be assessed according to FY09 paylines … but these won’t be in place until a budget is in place, which won’t happen until after Jan 20, 2009. Since budget levels will be frozen at FY08 levels, the current paylines can still provide a benchmark, but initial funding decisions will be tighter. In KL’s case, a 149 should be hopeful (especially at NIMH, which gives its POs a fair bit of leeway in picking applications), though if this is a Roadmap RFA, KL could face fierce competition for just a few awards spread across several ICs. Depends on the logistics of the FOA involved and what not.
Jerry Zhao said
Hi, there,
I have a priority score of 132 for my K01 resubmission to NIA. I contacted with the programm director, and was asked to wait till late September. Why there is no payline available for NIA? What do you think about my chance?
Thanks very much.
Jerry
With only a billion to spend and a lot of ground to cover, I’m not suprised that NIA does not publish a comprehensive schedule of percentile/priority score paylines so as to remain flexible to fund Institute priorities. The FY09 paylines won’t be set by any ICs for some time, probably not until next spring (though NIAID will no doubt post interim paylines). In the meantime, a slightly more conservative use of FY08 paylines will likely be in place during the continuing resolutions. In this particular case, a 132 should be quite fundable, but until some guidance is available on how Congress will handle the budget from Oct 1 until (I assume) sometime post-inauguration, no one will be able to give any firm advice on what will and won’t be funded from the Feb-March 2008 cycle submissions.
Ting Zhao said
Last updated: 25 Sept 2008 (note that NIAID has tentative, preliminary FY09 payline info for standard R01s only – ALL other data on this page refer to FY08, which will at best be continued through the anticipated continuing resolutions for the foreseeable future).
As dxescribed above, I wonder if payline will be continued during Continued Resolution from now to next March unless they claim their new payline. Based on your experience, you can send me an e-mail for this. I will appreciate you.
Best,
Ting C Zhao, MD
Anita said
I recieved a 133 for K01 applicaton to the social and behavioural sciences program in NIA, submited in July08. I have not yet recieved a request for JIT. Is this normal?
Thanks
Anita
Brad said
I just received a priority score of 137 for a NIMH K01 application (will begin July 2009 if awarded). Any idea what the payline might be or has been recently. Any help is appreciated.
Anita said
Hi
Anita again. My ERA page says “council review completed”. What does this mean? My score was 133 (NIA K01), but I did not recieve a JIT request. Was told in Dec that I would recieve it soon! Was also told by the program officer in Jan that the score was fundable. Can someone shed some light ?
Thanks
Valentina said
I have also received a JIT, council review completed, and award status is “Pending. Non-fellowship”. I am also having problems with the interpretation. Does somebody know the meaning of this? Thank you.
Diadia Vanya said
Seems like some of us should’ve heard already what are the paylines for other Institutes – i.e. the ones that keep this info ‘private’. I suspect these paylines are way (way!) below 10% as well as the last year’s level in general…
Well, the mum ICs tend to avoid strict numeric thresholds so they have less ’splaining to do when they don’t always pick the best-scoring applications for funding. Program likes to have the flexibility to fund their priorities rather than be payline slaves. I suggest folks use the published paylines as guidelines and then assume they have a fighting chance if they are above – but not too far above – in an IC that opts not to set strict percentile/score cut-offs. On a positive note, the stimulus package could well result in a lot of on-the-bubble applications being funded. – writedit
Diadia Vanya said
I dare say that ‘funding their priorities’ may mean many things. Not all of them nice.
When things get tough, it’s not a ticket that gets you on a train. It’s more like being a good friend with the engineer and the conductor that matters the most.
Anita said
I am also amazed at the lack of transparency in some of the institutes of NIH. Some will not even give a time line for decision making, leave alone talk of payline, or funding possibility.
writedit said
Wow. I just heard the payline for Ks seems to be at 130 throughout the NIH. This is without taking stimulus funding into consideration. Funding scored K applications up to 140 would be a quick way to distrbute a lot of money to worthy recipients who will need to submit separate R01s to maintain their funding (i.e., NIH not on the hook to renew $10 billion in awards in 3-5 years with money they don’t have). But of course, that probably makes too much sense.
Diadia Vanya said
The lower the paylines, the more chances are that the actual funding (money-dolling) decisions will be made in the ‘smoke-filled rooms’ rather than in the open.
Which will make the already low paylines even lower (for the rest of us).
Diadia Vanya said
What about NIH Director’s Bridge Award ? Does anyone know whether these will be available FY09 – or have they been ‘phased out’?
writedit said
The R56 mechanism isn’t specific or limited to the Director’s office, and I would speculate that a good chunk of stimulus funding will be paid out via this means, at least among the ICs that use this mechanism. NIAID provides a little tutorial on the ways that ICs use the R56 mechanism (bridge funding & high-priority short-term projects/selective pay – ie, just missed the payline).
ques said
Will K01 grants submitted to NCI follow the NCI cutoff or will they follow the cutoff for the assigned institute that evaluated the grant (i.e NHLBI)? The K award cutoffs seem highly variable between institutes so i dont think assuming a cutoff for one institute will be the same as another. I can’t find any information anywhere on K01 cutoffs for NCI. The program director will not give any information until the budget is passed and the council meets in may-june. Is it worth finding out what previous year funding cutoffs was as an estimate?
Whose payline takes precedence depends on the letters in your assigned grant number: if it includes “CA”, then the NCI payline applies; if it includes “HL”, then NHLBI applies. I assume the latter if an NHLBI study section reviewed the application; the IC study sections review applications specific to that IC. NCI might also be involved if your summary statement shows dual assignment (look on the right side of the first page just above the horizontal line in the middle – if you see an item called “Dual ICs:” with another set of letters, such as CA, one or more additional institutes are willing to chip in $). – writedit
ques said
thank you for your response, it looks like i have CA in my grant number so the score (150) will follow NCI cutoffs, of which i still can’t find any information on. I did find however, on last year’s summary statement, the Dual IC was listed as “HL” and the Dual PCC was “BB N”. It looks like the NCI-I subcommittee I on career development actually reviewed the application. Because my topic was on hematologic malignancies, is this why NHLBI was included and does this mean this institue will partially fund the grant? The program director indicated that cut offs for these proposals (CMBB) were below 160 or so in previous years, but with budget constraints, i think i will have to wait until the budget allocations are made.
sahsaj said
Any updates on NIA paylines for their RO1s reviewed in Feb 2009?
Nothing explicit, but a look at the FY08 data may help. Or not. According to the NIA Director’s report in Feb 2009, “NIA awarded 1,528 research project grants, including 391 competing awards.” [20.3% success rate] NIA anticipates making 432 competing awards in FY09. “Competing awards” includes new and renewal applications as well as supplements. Now, in FY08, 208 “percentiled” (ie, does not include applications in response to an RFA or supplements) applications scored within the 0-10.0 percentile range, with another 209 scoring within the 10.1-20.0 percentile range. So, probably still in the 14-15th percentile for established investigators and 19-20th percentile for new investigators. Educated guess – nothing more. – writedit
sahsaj said
Thanks much for your prompt response.
Bill said
Just saw the current paylines from NIHLBL rose up to 15/20 (R01/new). It was 12/17 percentile weeks ago. I wonder if other ICs would do the same thing to pull up paylines for regular R01s.
S Hyder said
Has anyone received a JIT from NCI in response to stimulus funds for grants reviewed in 2008?
Brardius said
Now that congress has passed H.R.1105, what are the chances that the NCI will increase its paylines. If it does, will it apply to February 2009 submissions?
I’ll go back to check paylines next week, though for this particular spring-summer cycle, the paylines for short R01s and R21s could “unofficially” go up to the 25th percentile (and higher priority scores) for a lot of ICs due to stimulus funding. I don’t expect a lot of definitive statements on their plans, though, and it could be no one will take the time to update their financial strategy pages since so much is in flux and they have their hands full with ARRA work. We’ll see.
Regardless, applications submitted since January 2009 will be paid out of the 2010 budget, which has yet to materialize but starts, in theory, on October 1, 2009. The exception, of course, are applications submitted in response to stimulus FOAs or any rapid-turnaround RFA that lists a start date of September 30, 2009 or earlier. – writedit
brardius said
Thank you for your answer. I’m also curious about October/November 2008 submissions reviewed in February (under the CR). Might these also benefit from the passing of HR 1105 in the form of increased paylines at the NCI?
Yes, and even more so, from ARRA. It seems likely that the regular appropriation will pick up applications scoring within the current payline (which will probably go up a smidge), while ARRA funding could pick up reviewed/scored applications in the 15-25th percentile for established investigators, up to the 25-30th percentile for new investigators, and up to the 25-35th percentile for early stage investigators (ESI). R01s to be considered in this range would need to be feasibly reworked into 2-year projects. – writedit
whimple said
Does getting 2-year ARRA R01 funding kill new investigator / ESI status?
Yes. The NIH is suggesting new/early stage investigators not apply for Challenge Grants for just this reason. These awards are just 2 years and not renewable, so this is good advice (similar to that urging these folks not to put their time into R21s). Except, given the level of competition, I suspect any new/ESI applicant who could secure $1M from the Challenge Grant program is already quite competitive and will probably do okay without the payline break/ESI award quota break. Applying doesn’t revoke the special status – just securing an award. – writedit
whimple said
I wasn’t talking about the challenge grants. I mean the 2-year R56esque pickups of previously scored, but unfunded R01s. Do you want to take the guaranteed 2-year R01 pickup, or take your close but no cigar grant back for resubmission to try to get 5 years on it? (not that I’m in this position, but others might be interested and I haven’t formally heard an answer to this yet)
Doh! You even said that above. Too few firing neurons here. No, per the official NIH definition, receiving an R56, which is bestowed like manna from heaven, does not revoke new investigator status. However, I am gleaning that the NIH would prefer to fund new/ESI applicants for the full 4-5 requested years rather than just 2 years in these stimulus pick-ups. For example, NIAID will be “Awarding new and early-stage investigators a four- or five-year grant according to our FY 2009 funding policy.” I’ve seen similar comments elsewhere. I assume the ICs hope to use stimuls funding to make more FY09 appropriation funding available for these new-ESI applications … but that’s my best guess. In any case, no, the R56 does not kill new-ESI status, but it seems the NIH does not plan to use R56 or other stimulus-truncated 2-y R01 funding for new-ESI folks either. – writedit
whimple said
Actually, if everyone else takes the 2-year cash for their R01 instead of resubmitting a 5-year proposal, this might be the perfect time to get those 5-year proposals put in there. That way your grant, complete with ESI status payline bonus, sails into easy funding in FY2010 and you and your remaining 4 years of support are laughing at all the chumps trying to keep the boat upright in the (predicted to be) very choppy waters of FY2011.
I just can’t imagine anyone being nervy enough to tell their PO “no thanks, I’m trying for bigger fish” on a 2-year R01 bailout.
Yes, this was the “golden year of opportunity” concept I was getting at in my comment about new investigator-ESI strategy under the Challenge Grant posting. – writedit
sahsaj said
Once we get percentiles on RO1s and requests for JIT, do we get any communications until the council meets? And after council meets, do the POs get in touch with us or we just get an award notice? Thanks.
Assuming your JIT was complete and satisfactory, nothing official until the Notice of Award (NoA) is sent to your sponsored programs office, but your PO will be able to let you know sooner if/when Council acts on your application. – writedit
Fred said
My PO emailed me today that the NCI new investigator payline is now 22%
Wow – that’s great news. Thanks for sharing this tidbit, Fred! – writedit
Bill said
Fred,
Thanks for sharing this great news. The NCI payline posted above is for new investigator, or ESI? As a new investigator, I had 17.5 percentile for my R01 grant.
lbrardius said
Bill, I was told by my PO that the paylines for R01s are 16 and 22 for new investigators. Congrats on your score (I’m just behind you with an 18).
It would be nice for NCI to update their Website with these higher paylines. They did remove reference to the interim/CR nature of the information but did not raise the percentile/priority score thresholds. The higher numbers do make sense though. – writedit
Bill said
Fred, you made my day! Congrats to you too. I will contact my PO next week.
Diadiavanya said
I think NHLBI paylines have been updated? No?
see:
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/funding/policies/operguid.htm
Hope this helps.
Yes, I see they bumped them up again. Thanks much for the heads up! Everyone should remember that this is for grants submitted in 2008 (anything submitted to the routine NIH cycles in 2009 will be funded in FY10). – writedit
Lee said
Thanks Bill & Fred. I am a new investigator with a 20.8% on my R21 form NCI. I just wonder if this is a fundable sore. My PO suggested me to resubmit it in early of March when she didn’t have any update about the new payline then (one month ago). Any info would be appreciated.
There is no payline break for new investigators on the R21 mechanism (which is part of the reason why new/ESI applicants are encouraged to apply for R01s instead). Your program officer would tell you to resubmit no matter what, so that is not surprising. You may still get the happy JIT request depending on whether stimulus funding of some R01s allows NCI to relax paylines further for the other mechanisms, but my guess looking at the other ICs and the bump in NCI paylines mentioned by Fred is that R21s may be paid up through the 17-18th percentile. – writedit
Brad said
If you receive a JIT request, does this mean you’re going to get the grant or does this just mean your one of the select few they’re considering funding?
Not a guarantee, but it means you will very likely be funded, assuming you have your IRB/IACUC/IBC etc. approvals in place and no other administrative or regulatory barriers to your ability to accept an award. In these stimulated times, please be sure to supply the required information immediately, within 3 business days (or at least contact the grants management officer in this time frame if you can’t get everything ready in time). – writedit
Tarek said
does any one know the paylines for the NCI K99/R00 award this cycle?
Thanks
lost in the big black box said
I submitted for a NIAID K99/R00 award last year – I just found out a bit ago, that NIAID collects submissions from all 3 cycles and then pulls out the top 6 (for FY08 it was 7 out of 91 applications). I’ve been told that no decisions have been made yet and it might take until late spring.
Needless to say, there is A LOT of waiting involved and it is basically impossible as a post-doc to resubmit if you fail to get it with a competitive score (I’m in the low 130s and have no idea if I have a chance or not) due to the 3 cycle wait (which is not posted ANYWHERE, you find out after submitting, waiting and finally contacting your PO).
I guess there isn’t much one can do other than waiting and hoping? There is no deadline for the NIAID to inform us about funding, is there?
- and tarek: just in case you didn’t know, FY08 NCI funded 54 out of 139 K99 applications, it should be similar this year
I confirmed that this is indeed the practice at NIAID and, what’s more, the success rate for K99/R00s is a whopping 7.6%. I’d normally say to breathe easy with a low-130 score, but maybe not. – writedit
D said
NIAID funds so few that it is difficult to fund them after each round. I think they tried it in the beginning but it didn’t work. The fact they they fund so few (and only for 3 years total) is a hint that NIAID isn’t keen on this mechanism and would prefer you submit a K22 or other similar award. Of course,if you are not a US citizen you don’t have much of a choice.
The only hard deadline for notice of funding is after the September council round and before the end of the fiscal year on Sept. 30. You have to hope that there are not 6 or more K99/R00s submitted that are better than yours. Did you ask about sending in a revision?
S Hyder said
Has anyone heard about NCI plans to fund 2008 RO-1s that were just beyond the payline with the stimulus funds?
A comment in the NCI Administrative Notices section of their ARRA funding strategies Website suggests not, but it’s hard to say for sure:
This is in reference to the recent NIH notice about ARRA-funded grant pick-ups being extended to those undergoing review this spring and summer. – writedit
lost in the big black box said
Hi writedit/D – thanks for your comments and input!
S Hyder said
Thanks……
How about exiting R56s from NCI……any news to your knowledge that these may be extended for another year. I think NIA (?) has indicated that they may grant one more year for R56s.
sahsaj said
Looks like NIA just posted its 2009 official payline: 11.6/16.6 for New Investigators and 23.1 for ESIs. http://www.nia.nih.gov/GrantsAndTraining/Policies/Funding_Policy_2009.htm
The funding line for 2008 was 14.2/19.2, I was hoping that it would be comparable/better this year…Does this mean that they have made some funding decisions for the May council?
RA said
In setting the FY09 R01 payline for established/new investigators the NCI has moved from 16th/22nd to 25th/25th (ARRA supported payline extension). Thus, established PI’s saw a ~56% gain, whereas new investigators were given ~13% bump.
As the numbers show, during the process of extending its payline the NCI’s self described “strong commitment to first-time R01 awardees” has gone astray. The only distinction remaining is the indication that New Investigators will be supported for 5 years whereas established PI’s will get a 4-year award, a measure unlikely to offset the advantage of being an established PI – more preliminary data, track record, name recognition, etc., which plays a role at the study section, and thus will not be corrected by the length of the award but rather by distinct paylines.
Moreover, most, if not all, of the other Institutes maintained the differential approach to new and previously funded investigators, even under the ARRA guidelines, e.g., the NHLBI set 25th percentile for established PIs, 30th percentile for new investigators, and 35th percentile for early-stage investigators.
What was the rationale at the NCI to “equalize” these paylines?
Thanks for this thoughtful observation, for which I, of course, have no response. Part of the enhanced peer review process will be to percentile new investigator applications separately from established investigator applications (ditto for clinical research applications), though how this will play out or be implemented by ICs remains to be seen. – writedit
Stellar said
in further support of RA’s observation is the apparent refusal of the NCI to made any inroads into K23 or K08 funding mechanisms. It is not really worth debating which is more important for a young investigator, a K award or first R01, but it seems like if there were a commitment to physician scientists the NCI would have changed the K award payline like virtually every other institute (e.g. NHLBI).
whimple said
Maybe the NCI has data that training physician scientists to do cancer research isn’t worth it.
writedit said
Interestingly, no NCI K08, K23, or K24 awards here at BICO (#10 in NCI funding in 2007) in FY08. In fact, just 5 Ks (2 K01, 2 K07, 1 K22) and an F31 plus 3 T32s. – writedit
diadiavanya said
Who owns the NIH ‘direct costs’ money?
For example, can the PI’s Institution expropriate (steal) the direct funds? Or make a PI to hire a certain person (a recent ‘laid-off) instead of an external candidate? Is there anything in the agreement that the Institution has to sign that directly prohibits it to ‘mess’ with the PI’s discretion?
writedit said
Awards are made to the institution, not the PI. That said, the institution needs to notify the NIH about changes in senior/key personnel named in the Notice of Award, and the grant is made to the institution with the understanding the named PI will be given the resources/academic freedom to achieve the stated aims … but the NIH won’t get involved with petty disputes at the institution level. My advice to a PI who feels wronged by his/her department/school would be to talk with the sponsored programs office first, since their butt is on the line in case anything illegal/improper is going on, and/or the NIH Grants Management Officer/Specialist named in the Notice of Award.
The NIH Award Conditions Page includes a link to the federal regulations for conditions and expenditures of awards made to institutions of higher education (45 CFR Part 74) and other related notices.
diadiavanya said
Thanks.
I guess we all (the NIH funded investigators working for private universities) face a problem of those who serve two masters – our loyalty has to be divided between the Institution (who pays us) and the NIH (who also does).
And the King is mighty and just – but far away in Washington, while the local bureaucrat is a petty tyrant, but oh-so-close…. Hence, the choices we make are sometimes not the high road.
D said
Writedit gives a great summary. Also keep in mind that the grant award is to fund specific research. That is, research described in the grant. Although an institution can take away the money it still can only be used to further the Aims of the grant.
Can they force you to hire someone? That sounds like it impinges on your academic freedom and should be taken up with your faculty senate. Of course, if they are willing to pay say half of the salary…..
DS said
Any insight on NIDCR paylines??
When they will make decision on funding last 2 cycles grants under ARRA
writedit said
NIDCR has been reviewing meritorious but unfunded applications for possible ARRA pick-ups. I would assume they’ve completed reviewing the backlog but cannot say for sure. It could be they are waiting to make final final ARRA funding decisions until after the upcoming study section meetings, when additional close but unfunded meritorious applications will be added to the potential ARRA funding pile. Their payline has traditionally been more relaxed than the big ICs, but I have no data to suggest potentially fundable scores for specific mechanisms, unfortunately. – writedit
SM said
I contacted NIDCR on June 1st asking whether I should resubmit my application. The PO said their funding plans are not yet complete, and he will not be able to get a definitive answer for a few weeks.
So, with the new scoring procedure, is an 80 good news? « Medical Writing, Editing & Grantsmanship said
[...] accordingly, and I’ll post updates as the ICs provide them here in the main blog and on the NIH Paylines & Resources [...]
Chloe said
What was MBRS SC2 fundable priority score last year and what is it expected to be this time? Thanks in advance.
cs said
does nci not reveal paylines for k08 priority scores? A few of the above threads imply it is no different than past years…which were?
writedit said
Not that I’ve seen. Depending on whether you are talking about a straight K08 or the NCI diversity K08, I’d suggest asking the appropriate program contact for ballpark paylines from years past. Possibly these data might be gleaned from presentations at one of the Advisory Board meetings. -writedit
dd said
Do you know if a 24 under the new scoring system is a fundabable K grant? No percentiles are assigned. Thanks.
writedit said
No guarantees, but, depending on the mechanism, a 24 could be a fundable score, especially at one of the “smaller” ICs that receive fewer applications. – writedit
Bronwyn said
I can’t for the life of me find NCI payline for SBIR. Is it 190, as with the NHLBI? We’re about to be scored and I know my boss is going to be breathing down my neck about whether or not we beat the payline.
Jerry Zhao said
How about a score of 38 for NIA K01? Is it fundable?
Thanks
scilover said
A score of 31 for NIBIB R43 (SBIR) is fundable.?..Any idea what will be this score according to previous scale (100-300).?
AP said
Has anyone heard anything about the NCI F32 payline for proposals reviewed in Feb 2009?
mali said
Hi, Like AP, I was wondering if anyone has any ideas on what kind of scores for NCI F32s will be funded?
My first application was unscored and my reapplication was scored 47. I know its low but I wondered if the stimulus package may help me out here.
Any info is appreciated. Im down in the dumps right now.
AP said
Hey Mali,
What was your priority score for the F32, if you don’t mind me asking? It should be a 3 digit number. Mine was 150, for example.
mali said
I didnt get a 3 digit number. This was with the new scoring system of 1 through 9. So my mean score was 4.7.
AP said
Gotcha, I’m still on the old scoring system. I’ll let you know if I hear something. Best of luck!
eco said
Hi ya, all
Clearly, all of us are struggling to find out the meaning of the newly issued NIH score. Me too!
Here is what I heard from my friend who attended the NIH review session recently. In that session, no one got score between 10~20! This indicates that score is practically starting from 20 even it can start from 100 technically!
So, Is 30 is good ? 40 is bad? I do not know.
I guess we have to wait for the correctly evaluated %.
Good luck to all.
scilover said
You mean nobody get score in between 10-20 with any of the applications with NIH or you are talking about applications submitted to any particualr institute.? This is a good news I think.
eco said
Sorry! there was a typo in my previous comment.
New scoring system starts from 10 and NOT 100!
AP said
Hi All,
Just a follow-up. I haven’t heard anything yet about the funding of the F32s. From what I understand nobody has heard back yet so I guess no news is good news, so far. From what I’ve heard from our grants office we should be hearing back by the end of this month…..hopefully.
b said
FYI, I just received my F32 score in NIGMS and received a 12 so it is possible to get below 20. I believe anything from 10-32 will be funded, we will see.
sahsaj said
Has anyone heard back from their challenge grant applications (RC1s)? How long do you think it may take to post scores after a meeting? Thanks in advance.
D said
They are supposed to be posted with 5 workings after the end of the meeting. But with the huge numbers of RC1s who knows. If they discussed only 10% of the apps then they will be posted fast. If they discussed 30-50% then it will be a lot longer.
Given that the meetings were 2 days long they couldn’t have discussed (at least at the regular level of study section discussions) more than 50 apps.
Anyone out there from one of the RC1 editorial boards want to tell us how it was run?
april said
I received my RC1 score today from NIDDK….I heard there were 721 submitted to my study section, I received a 15 and a 1% ….so if I don’t get funded I will freak, but there is the possibility. 1 percentile should get funded I hope. If not, that is ridiculous.
writedit said
Wow – congrats! – writedit
D said
Wow. Congratulations! That is a great score.
Don’t forget. Your first quarterly report is due Oct. 10. You’ll have had your money for what, 10 days? Actually I wonder if you will have to make the Oct. 10 deadline.
april said
I was told that if it isn’t funded by the recovery act funds that the institute may pick it up. Thanks for the congrats! I won’t celebrate until I see the award letter tho!
sahsaj said
Congratulations! No such luck for me for my RC1:(
Valerie said
I just received a score of 13 for a K01 to NIMH. Judging from postings and conversation with program officer, I am encouraged. However, there’s no way to clearly interpret scores until all scores from this past review round are in. Per my p.o., only then will paylines begin to be considered. But even then, what’s awarded and when are contingent upon what the 2010 NIH budget looks like and when it is passed. So, ambiguity and uncertain abounds!
Sudhakar Akulapalli said
I have noticed NHLBI and NIA announced FY2009 payline for established, new investigators (NI) and early stage investigators (ESI) are different. I am a new and also early stage investigator, my RO1 was scored 25 percentile (1st cycle) June 2009. NCI FY2009 payline16/22 percentile for established/new investigators. Unfortunately NCI FY2009 was not mentioned about early stage investigators (ESI) payline. I lile to know that 25 percentile will be with in the payline for the new and early stage investigator under FY2010 budget plan. Is I need to weight upto the next council meeting or resubmit my grant in noveber 2009, please suggest.
Harish said
I’m in the same situation. Got a score of 38 and 24% on my R01 (ESI). NCI payline for FY09 is 25% from ARRA funds, but not sure this will hold good for FY10. My PO suggested me to get ready for resubmission. Can’t wait till the council review gets done in Oct.
I would appreciate if anyone has info regarding NCI FY10 paylines.
writedit said
This may not be good enough for the lean interim paylines at the start of FY10, though it might get picked up later in the FY … but by then, you would have resubmitted. I’d go with your PO’s advice, since the November resubmission will give you the space to address reviewer concerns (12-p resubmission in March may put you at a disadvantage). If your A0 is funded, the A1 is withdrawn, and you’ve only lost the time spent on the revised application.
My main caveat would be if reviewers wanted to see more preliminary data – if you don’t have these by November, then you’ll need to wait (since you only have one more shot).
taterhead said
Thanks for posting this comment. It gives me more information to better judge my situation. I’m also ESI and received a 37 on an R01 submitted in response to an RFA. I didn’t get a percentile, since it was an special RFA study section, so it difficult to know where I stand. Guided by my PO’s advice, I’ll be submitting a new app (can’t actually resubmit since it was an RFA) in October, but still holding out a tiny bit of hope that the first one is funded.
Monica said
I received a score of 39 and a 7th percentile score for an RC1 submitted to the NIDDK. I assume it probably won’t be funded.
D said
You are probably right. You could start hitting up your NIDDK PO to see if they will fund it with NIDDK ARRA money. It is possible that you were one of the better scoring NIDDK apps in that study section.
Zacky said
My RC1 proposal receives 49 and 12% from NIGMS. I guess it will not be funded. Do Challenge Grants consider ESI status ?
AJ said
Mine received 37 and 8% from NCI. I assume it probably won’t be funded either
dbrumb said
Is a score of 31 from NHLBI for a K08 enough?
D said
At this point I do not think anyone knows. No one is used to the new scoring system yet so it is hard to say whether a given score is in the funding range. It depends on how all of the other Ks from NHLBI score and how many they can fund with this fiscal year’s money. Keep in mind that Congress has not yet given NIH a budget for this fiscal year. Another monkey wrench.
Fred said
I got on my RC1 a 7th percentile and a 38 score. I’m hopeful because a 7th is decent. My RC1 is under consideration primarily by NICHD, but also by NIDDK and NINDS.
Any advice on how to proceed?
writedit said
You can find a full discussion of RC1 scores and strategies here on the main blog. Be sure you’ve made contact with the PO for the Challenge Topic to which you applied as well as your “usual” PO, whether this is at NICHD, NIDDK, or NINDS. You won’t be one of the 200 to receive OD funding, but you may fall within the top 10% of one of these ICs for that particular Broad Challenge Area (1-15, not the individual topic). Good luck!
S Hyder said
I just received the summary sheet for RC1 (not discussed). Some of the comments wriiten clearly indicate that the reviewer(s) did not have proper background to review the proposal. Anyone else in similar situation?
Also, the summary sheet indicates answering critques when resubmitting. I thought there was no resubmission of RC-1s? Am I missing something or does this indicate that even if you submit the proposal as an RO1 the reviewer’s comments need to be addressed as “Introduction”.
Thanks
D said
There are probably 20,000 people who feel the same way you do. I think CSR was lucky to find enough warm bodies to read all of the RC1 apps. BTW, NIH wouldn’t say that they didn’t have the expertise. They would say that the reviewers had a broad scientific background that gave them a high level overview of the field.
The language on the SS is template language that goes out on all R01 SS. Just ignore it. You can not resubmit an RC1 as an amended application. You can only submit it as a new R01 or R21 or other appropriate mechanism.
AP said
Hey Everyone,
This is for the F32s from the NCI submitted last December. The award annoucements are starting to go out to applicants. I was scored based on the old scoring system (my proposal was a resubmission) and I received a priority score of 150 and was told today that it is in the fundable range. Best of luck to everyone!
nick said
Our impact score is 32 and percentile score is 6. It seems like the odds of being awarded is very low. After doing some research, I am puzzled with what I have learned regarding how NIH is planning to use the stimulus money. It seems like some NIH institutes is currently considering awarding failed applications which have the percentile score of 30 or below. They are going to reject Challenge Grants proposals which are below 2 or 3 percentile score. This just does not make any sense to me. Since both past and present proposals went through similar scientific reviews, we should assume that their scores are comparable. If so, why would they prefer proposals with 30 percentile score over the ones with 3 or 6 percentile score? Since the Challenge Grant topics were suggested by the institutes, they could not make an argument based on differences in research subject. It is simply not FAIR if NIH award proposals rated 30 while reject those rated 6. It is also waste of public money to support low-quality research proposals instead of those which are rated excellent and above. My suggestion is to initiate online petition to the NIH director requesting the change in their policy on challenge grants. Here is the contact info for Raynard S. Kington, M.D., Acting Director:
NIHKingtonDirect@mail.nih.gov
I could almost hear some of you saying it is worthless. Remember we have nothing to lose other than few minutes in writing an email message to the director.
thank you
nick
pankaj kapahi said
wonderful blog ! and a great resource , the NIH should pay for this- it would help cut their costs!
Do you know the cut off score for the competive supplements under the ARRA.
Thanks
D said
Maybe WritEdit should submit a grant to fund this work
.
Emaderton3 said
I am as confused as everyone else. I submitted a K25 for the February deadline that went to NCI. I received a priority score of 30. The comments on my summary statement were not very critical and only seemed to point out very minor things that were not a big deal at all. I talked to the PO, and she could not really give me any information due to the budget not being passed yet and the fact that no one knows what to make of the new scoring system. She wouldn’t even give me a suggestion as to whether or not I should definitely resubmit. Originally I was told that a funding decision would probably not be made until March or April of next year (because Congress usually delays passing the budget)! But, she said they may know something by November. I know that the NIH budget was approved by the appropriations committee very recently, but it still needs to be voted on. After reading many of the comments here, I guess no one would know any better whether a 30 for a K award is a fundable score?
writedit said
During the prior administration, the federal government routinely operated under a continuing resolution (meaning the prior FY budget levels) until a new budget was passed. This year, there is a chance the FY10 federal budget could be passed by the start of the fiscal year (Oct 1) … or at least soon after. However, the budget will not be much more than a continuation of FY09 levels due to the low increase in NIH base appropriation anticipated (~1.4%).
Now, I think you have a reasonable shot with your K25 score of 30 since NCI shows a 42% success rate with this mechanism and since the scoring procedure is so new (i.e., some leeway may be given since reviewers are not familiar with how to assign scores and may be conservative at first). This latter is conjecture on my part though.
I’m surprised the PO didn’t simply advise you to resubmit … and you should certainly consider revising the application for the next round in case it is necessary. The worst that will happen is that you submit an amended application and the initial submission is funded in the meantime. The resubmission is withdrawn, and your funding starts immediately (i.e., you don’t wait for the A1 to be reviewed etc.). Extra work, but you’d have all your bases covered … plus some extra grantwriting practice. ; – )
Prasanna said
Hi,
My resubmitted (NICHD) my K25 is pending Review (next week).I am curious to know whether a score around 30 is fundable under the new system. I know your score is in this range according to the above comment.
Thanks,
PR
KT said
Does anyone know or heard from anyone what is the NCI cut-off for a competitive supplement to an RO1. Mine doesn’t seem to have a percentile, just a priority score of 40
Bhagavatula Moorthy said
I got a priority score of 32 and percentile of 22 on a new RO1 (first submission). The grant will be reviewed in the NHLBI Oct 2009 council. In their website, the NHLBI says they will rebalance success rates for the 2010 FY, which means they will award about 60% applications in their AO submission. What do you think is my chance? My PO does not know how this will be implemented, so she advised me to re-submit. If I wait until March, then I will only be allowed 12 pages. Any advice?
Sundar said
I got a Priority score of 50 and pecentile of 12 on my RC1 application assigned to NHLBI. I was told that they are funding up to percentile of 15, but should have score of 10-40. But I was also told that up to score of 50 is still possible under the select pay policy. Any idea, how to go about this? Also I did not receive any JIT from NHLBI yet. Is there still time, or I should think I am out? Any comments.
D said
For select pay you need to bug your PO to convince his/her boss and boss’ boss that your work is so novel/innovative/exciting that it is worth funding outside the payline/scoreline. If you got great scores in innovation but weaker scores in approach you might have a shot. Also, if you can convince them that you score was do to a factual error (this has to be obvious and blatant) that would help too.
Begging and saying that you will have to shut down your lab and fire people probably doesn’t hurt either.
KUMAR said
Since yesterday, the status of my RC grant with 15 percentile says “pending award. Non fellowships”. What does this mean? It was assigned to NCI.
XJB said
Does anyone have idea about the NIGMS R01 payline for FY2010?
I got an impact score 26 and percentile 14%.
I justtalked with my PO today.
The PO said that I had better than 50/50 chance to be funded, but I had to wait until Nov-December for the funding decision. The PO also said that it was up to my own judgment if I shall resubmit or not.
By the way, I am an early-stage investigator and this is my first submission.
Anyone here can give me some suggestion? Shall I resubmit my proposal?
D said
That is a great score for an ESI first submission. Congrats.
This might not be much help but NIAID has a preliminary payline for FY 2010 of 6%. NI/ESIs will have a preliminary payline of 10%. Both are likely to go up a few points once Congress sets a budget and they see how many ARRA grants get recycled. So, since NIGMS recently has had a payline a few points higher than AI you do have a decent shot of getting funded.
I think you definitely should resubmit if the major weaknesses are fairly easy to address. That is no new major experiments were requested or a request to publish more papers. If the reviewers are just asking for a rewrite of some parts of your aims or clarification of your experimental design then a resubmission is the best idea.
This upcoming cycle is the last with a 25 page R01. It is not clear how NIH will grandfather in prior submissions. They might not. So, it will be less work to rewrite this app then if you wait until next year and have to cut it down to 13 (12+1 for SAs) pages. On the downside it is more work for you that might not be necessary and you could get a worse score. The latter shouldn’t be a big concern because NIGMS could still fund your first submission…I think.
So, resubmit for this round if you can. Double check with you PO about my last statement.
XJB said
D, thanks a lot for your great comment. I would say that NIAID is crazy. 6% is just like lottery.
Emaderton3 said
As I have posted before, I received a priority score of 30 on a K25 to NCI. The council review meeting was last week. I have talked to my PO, and this person still could not tell me anything on my chances of funding. I have to wait until December when the decisions are made. Since the council has met, wouldn’t you think that someone could at least tell me if I was close to the cutoff of funding if they go by last year’s numbers as an approximation?
XJB said
My PO gave me the following responses: 1) you have a very good chance; 2) you have better than 50/50 chance; 3) you have to make your own decision if you want to resubmit or not. This really makes me confusing and I don’t know what to do.
D said
You are probably on the bubble and there are many factors that could affect you getting funded. My guess is that no one wants to promise you funding only to have to reverse themselves later. Unfortunately there is not much for you to do except wait, hope and perhaps resubmit.
Mark Ebell said
I had a 6th percentile for a Challenge Grant to NLM, was asked to submit JIT information. Last update is “Pending Council Review”, and council supposedly met on 9/15. Anyone know when we’ll be notified of the funding decision?
Best, Mark Ebell / UGA
DS said
Any new on NIDCR council meeting held today.
I regular study section I received priority score of 34 and I am NI.
Ezo said
Hi All
the study session for my R01 is coming up in october (NICHD). Does anybody know the pay-line for this agency?
Thank you
Ezo
Suds said
Does anybody know the payline for NEI FY2009? The study session for my R01 is coming up in october (NEI).
Suds
writedit said
Grants reviewed this October will be funded in FY10. However, Congress hasn’t passed a budget for FY10 … though no matter what, the NIH budget will again be no growth (~1.5% increase from FY09), so the paylines will be no higher than … and perhaps lower than … FY09. The overachievers at NIAID demonstrate this with their drop to an interim payline at the 6th percentile. You shouldn’t expect payline info from mere mortal ICs for some time – not until after the budget passes, and not until they figure out how to handle the new scoring system and minimal percentile data for these early rounds – and how to estimate the potential spike in applications due to recycled ARRA submissions (RC1s, RC2s, R15s, etc.) and ARRA awardees getting in line for continued funding.
peluhukay said
hmm…waiting for budgets/funding decisions is frustrating! I have a priority score of 25 on my final resubmission of my K01 through NCRR and they had the council review half a month ago. I have my start date as Dec 1, so am anxiously awaiting to hear about my chances of having this funded as this was my last submission. However, I honestly never received a notice on my first resubmission about funding whereas I did receive a notice saying my original application would not be funded. Does anyone know when NCRR will make funding decisions? From reading comments above, it looks like some of the other K awards submitted around the same time are waiting until Dec to hear. I have tried to contact my PO, but have not heard back yet.
Emaderton3 said
I was originally told March or April of next year, but November/December of this year now seems to be what everyone is hearing. You probably will not get much information from your PO until the decisions are actually made.
Emaderton3 said
There was a story this morning on CNN about President Obama visiting NIH today and announcing $5 billion dollars for research grant money. It sounds like the focus of some of the money is for cancer research (my K25 is awaiting a funding decision by NCI). The article says that this money is part of the Recovery Act, so does that mean it will only fund grants that were specifically submitted for that money, or will it also be used to fund established NIH programs like R01s and K awards?
writedit said
I could be wrong, but I believe he is just publicizing the benefits of $5B out of the NIH’s allocated $10.3B will be spent on “groundbreaking medical research” … that is, he is touting the awards already made (or obligated as of today anyway) versus announcing an additional $5B in funding.
peluhukay said
I emailed my PO back when the stimulus money was first announced and was told (at least for NCRR) that the stimulus money does not really apply to K awards. I am not sure if this is true for all K awards and for all institutes (I had a 175 on my previous K01 submission, so was hoping the stimulus money would help it get funded…turns out NCRR only funded 1 of the 8 applications they received last year when previous years have been near 50% success rate).
Emaderton3 said
Good luck. I emailed my PO back just to see if I could find out if my score was in the top third of the scored grants. NCI has had a 40% success rate for K25 awards for the last two years, so I figure if the budget stays roughly the same that they will award the same number. I may have a chance then if my score is in the upper tier. But I haven’t heard anything yet.
SM said
When will NCI announce its new payline for 2010. Also, till-then what would be the interim NCI payline. What is the history of interim payline with NCI. Do the the interim payline include new investigator like me with 10 percentile.
Kumar said
I got notification from the NHLBI that my Challenge grant, which was on the 12 percentile (priority score 50) was not funded. I heard that the payline was funding up t0 15 percentile, but also needed a PS of 10-40. I looked at NIH reporter, and noticed that NHLBI awarded 135 Challenge grants. In their Website, they had planned to award up to 200 challenge grants (NHLBI funds). This is in addtion to the OD’s 200 grants accross NIH intitues. I am sure I would have been funded if they awarded what they say would in the website.
My question is can they still pick up some grants in this fiscal year, is they still have ARRA money left? Or are all the funds already obligated or commited?
Please advice.
Tarek said
Hello,
I just received a priority score of 19 on K99 resubmitted application (NCI). Does anyone know the chances of my application of getting funded?
Thanks in advance!
writedit said
The K99s are really competitive, especially at NCI (33% success rate … 103 submitted, 34 funded in FY08). Your 19 would be roughly a 145 in the old priority score scale, which is likely on the bubble … but Program has some leeway on these if your focus is of particular interest.
Deborah said
Okay, my PO just told me that my score of 27 was very, very good and would have been funded under the FY08 and 09 paylines. I am #8 out of 63 applications (13th percentile). Therefore, unless the paylines decrease dramatically for 2010, I have a very, very good chance of being funded.
NCI’s past paylines and success rates (FY08=29%, 34 awarded/119 applications and FY09=24%, 25/104 applications). This information was gleaned from my PO.
I think your score of 19 is fantastic and definitely will be funded.
Emaderton3 said
Deborah, I was curious how you got this information from your PO. I am awaiting info on the first submission of a K25 to NCI, and I have asked many times for my chances for funding. I even asked how I ranked out of the total number of applications, but my PO wouldn’t tell me. Since your is also a K award to NCI, we should have the same PO.
By the way, I had received a priority score of 30. I have not heard anything from NCI nor have a received a JIT request. Is that a bad sign?
writedit said
Deborah has a fabulous PO. Because they get so few K25s, it seems as though your PO should at least be able to tell you where you stand in that pile though. NCI has a fourth Council meeting at the end of November (NCI & NHBLBI meet 4x per year instead of 3x per public law) so may make additional funding decisions then, though gankutsuoh noted the interim NCI paylines (passed along by another helpful PO) below.
Emaderton3 said
That should be my fabulous PO as well! Since you had pointed out that they have funded 40% of K25’s over the last 2 years, I am still optimistic with my score. But, to be safe, I am working on my resubmission for next week.
Deborah said
I got this information from my PO by quoting this blog (without revealing the source) saying that a 19 priority score by Tarek (above) would not likely be funded under current NCI guidelines.
She replied quite candidly that the information was erroneous, false, and flat out not true.
Then she gave me the funded stats for previous years and told me I was #8/63, etc. She also said I have a great score and it would have been funded under ‘08 and ‘09 standards so I should be very happy about my score (indicating to me that I will be funded under ‘10 payline). In other words I am not on the bubble but truly inside the bubble and loving every minute of that bubble!
writedit said
Congratulations, Deborah! Based on the info your PO gave you for FY08 & FY09, NCI probably funds 8-11 K99s per cycle, which is a lot. NHLBI funded 25 in FY08, but most ICs fund fewer than 10-12 per year, not per cycle (of course, they usually get fewer applications, too … though NIGMS received 114 applications and only funded 16 for a 14% success rate). The key is knowing where you stand in your IC’s pile for your mechanism, especially with the new scores, and again, you have a wonderful PO for being so forthcoming with this info. Congrats on the great PO, too!
Emaderton3 said
I asked her for the same information last month, but she would not give me my ranking of my grant. I even put it in the context of them funding 40% over the last two years and asking if I would make the cutoff! But, that must mean they are making some decisions now!?
Tarek said
My PO just told me that my application ranks as number 2 among this and the previous cycle. She said that a 19 is an OUTSTANDING score and that there is no reason why my proposal would not be funded. As you see from the language she’s using, her comments is free of any commitment to fund an application. Thus, I am surprised that she told Deborah that they will in fact fund her application! A second point that was made is that NCI do not give a percentile, yet she was giving me a rank of my application. Is the rank different than percentile??
Emaderton3 said
I don’t think they do percentiles for K awards. Also, my PO told me they had an unusually large number of applicants this year. So I’m not sure the percentages for grants funded will be maintained this year. For example, they funded 40% of K25’s the last two years but I think they had something like ~12 applilcations. If that number doubles, I doubt they could fund 40% this year. That is why I am worried!
writedit said
Rank is just that – a direct rank ordering of applications from best to worst based on score. SROs rank applications for discussion based on preliminary impact score, and program ranks them based on the final impact score assigned. So you are ranked second (congratulations!) and Deborah was ranked 8th (out of 63 … I sure hope that 63 represents two cycles of applications – Feb & June – versus just one cycle).
Percentile estimates relative rank and is calculated as the percentage of applications receiving a better impact score from the reviewing SRG during the past year (see actual equation here). Current percentiles are a bit fuzzy since there are only 2 rounds of data – and these are based on a new scoring system. NCI reviews their own K applications (not CSR), so I assume Deborah calculated her own percentile based on the rank order info from her PO versus having it assigned by the NIH. Now, NCI will still need to take into account the number of applications submitted this last cycle (Oct & Nov 12), but they have an idea of how many applications they can fund per cycle by now and which scores fall in this range by rank ordering.
As an aside, having all these data shared here suggest that Toni Scarpa’s hope that reviewers only score 1s in exceptional cases and spread their scoring out seems to be fulfilled, at least for now, at least for these K99s at NCI.
Deborah said
Tarek,
My PO did NOT tell me I would be funded and I never said that. I said quote, “She also said I have a great score and it would have been funded under ‘08 and ‘09 standards so I should be very happy about my score (indicating to me that I will be funded under ‘10 payline)” unquote.
“would have” and “indicating” do not seem definite to me.
writedit,
Yes, this is my ranking out of two rounds. My PO also said not to forget that there is another round of applications for January and they have over 50 applications so far. So unless these new apps are the cats meow and so insightful tht they push me out of the ranking….however, I am still going to remain optomistic.
writedit said
I don’t think I ever clarified for Emaderton3 that his K25 PO at NCI is not the same as the K99 PO (and NCI has its own K99 program, the Howard Temin Pathways to Independence Award in Cancer Research, so this K99 discussion won’t necessarily translate to other K99 applicants). Some ICs have an all-purpose career development/training PO, but not the bigger ones like NCI.
And yes, Deborah, you (& Tarek) should remain optimistic.
Tarek said
Deborah, and writedit,
Oh, sorry for the misunderstanding! I tried to get more info from the PO but won’t get beyond the standard replay that you have a good score but cannot comment any further until the budget is passed. Any idea when will they have a funding decision? A second point Deborah raised is about the next review cycle. Will the outcome of this review affect funding and/or rank for the current or previous cycles of revisions? I am totally confused now.
Simon said
I have a score of 13 on a resubmitted K01 (NIMH/NICHD shared) – are these as competitive as the K99? I passed council review and the PO was switched to the person who handles Ks for NICHD, which I presume is a good sign. Any sense about chances of funding? Thanks in advance!
writedit said
Let’s see … your 13 would be the equivalent of a 115 priority score, and in FY08, NICHD funded 6 of 12 K01 applications received (50% success rate -NIMH was 23 for 64 or a 36% success rate) … so you should be cautiously optimistic about funding – congratulations!
Simon said
Thanks to each of you who replied re my K01 app/score for your input and good wishes. Special thanks to those who maintain this website – very useful! I will remain cautiously optomistic.
peluhukay said
I think that is a great score! If you go to: http://grants.nih.gov/training/outcomes.htm and click on Success Rates for Career Development Awards by Institute and Center you can download an xls document which shows the number of applications received and awards given for each K grant and each NIH center. What is concerning for me is that NCRR usually funds 40-50% of K01s, but in 2008, they only funded 1 out of 8 applications!!! It looks like the success rate of NICHD was 50% and for NIMH was 36%, so I would think your chances are good.
SM said
Like NIAID, why does not other institutes announce their interim payline.
Srini said
Hi , Is 14 a fundable score for K08 grant in 2009 ?
writedit said
I hate to be overly optimistic with anyone, but this is the equivalent, roughly, of a 120 in the priority score days, which also almost certainly would have been funded. Some ICs are more competitive than others, but I cannot think of one that would have a payline below 120/14 … if your program officer doesn’t automatically suggest preparing a resubmission, that could be all the hint you’ll get.
Srini said
vow !! really appreciate it , that’s exactly what my bro’s ( i posted the query on his behalf ) PO had told him – no need to resubmit .
stellar said
Hi writedit,
can you tell me where you are getting these decoder keys for the K grants. I have learned from your reading that a score of 14=120, and a 13 = 115 from the above two postings. what is this line look like?
what are 15, 20, 25 in old scores?>
writedit said
[(15 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 125
[(20 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 150
[(25 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 175
[(30 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 200
[(35 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 225
((40 – 10) x 5] + 100 = 250
Anything higher is essentially in triage territory (even if scored)
[(impact score - 10) x 5] + 100 = priority score
This formula was originally posted by Emerdaton3 with the appropriate caveat that the old priority score doesn’t mean the same thing as the new impact score … though this at leasts helps you mentally place your application in the pile. The percentiles will be much harder to get a handle on until at least 3 submission cycles have gone by … and now again, until at least 3 submission cycles of the shorter application format.
XJB said
If you compare the two figures in the following place
https://loop.nigms.nih.gov/index.php/2009/09/22/the-new-scoring-system/
You will see that your conversion formula is not that accurate.
instead I would suggest
[(impact score - 10) x 3.5] + 100 = priority score
XJB said
Due to the new NIH policy, for established investigators, very likely you need to get a prelim score <=30 to be discussed.
writedit said
Dookie posted your formula (using a 3.5 multiplier) previously as well. I’m not quite sure why the NIGMS figures plotting score against percentile demonstrate that the equation using a multiplier of 5 is not accurate, however. The equation (with x 5 multiplier) does work to put the impact score in priority score scale … though, as noted above, the meaning in terms of percentiles and funding likelihood does not convert as well. Thank you so much for posting the link, which provides nice insight into how the new scoring procedure is shaking out.
For comparison …
[(15 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 125 vs {x 3.5} = 117
[(20 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 150 vs {x 3.5} = 135
[(25 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 175 vs {x 3.5} = 152
[(30 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 200 vs {x 3.5} = 170
[(35 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 225 vs {x 3.5} = 187
[(40 – 10) x 5] + 100 = 250 vs {x 3.5} = 205
[(90 - 10) x 5] + 100 = 500 vs {x 3.5} = 380
stellar said
thanks to you and XJB both. XJB’s may be more accurate, since the reviewers are given the explicit instructions to use the whole scale…. so there should be just as many 80’s as 20’s…
there cetainly were more 150’s than 350 scores given with teh old system…. so this would tend to shift scores HIGHER, and thus the 3.5X multiplier might be more accurate.. at least it is data driven. that being said, two excellent folks on this page seem to have good 13 and 14 on their K awards, and i do not remember seeing may old scores of 110…. [(13-10)X3.5]+100
Srini said
Just curious to know on my K08 query , the score obtained on 1st submission ( our case ) vs the SAME score obtained on a re-submission , is there any difference w.r.to grant ?
Tanya said
About K99 payline
Just got the email from the PO of NCI, predicting that the payline for k99 will be likely between 10-34. Anybody has any comments on this? Is it reasonable or it’s just a wild guess? I got a score of 25 and hopefully it will be funded.
D said
Not much of a guess by the PO. This is like saying the odds of you getting funded are between 0 and 100%.
Deborah said
I got a 27 and received the same email. I don’t understand “D” ’s reply to you. Is he saying the PO doesn’t know anything or is he saying the PO does have a good idea?
CHP said
I have a priority score = 30 on an STTR at NIAID, but no word yet on STTR paylines for FY10. I was asked for JIT info and my PO was rather non-committal on whether to resubmit (which I already have-comments easy to respond to). Any insight into fundability and the timing of this in my case? Do you think it would pay out, if funded, before the New Year? Thx!
writedit said
Although the score is a little high for STTR (SBIRs get funded above 200), you’ve said all the right things to suggest a good possibility of funding … JIT request (I assume this is an e-mail rather than eRA commons request), PO not immediately telling you to think about resubmitting. If you submitted last Feb, you should be funded by the New Year – if in June, then not until next spring. Things might be running a little behind with the extra burdens placed on grants management at the NIH by ARRA.
D said
NIAID has set their interim NI/ESI R01 payline at 10% . http://www.niaid.nih.gov/ncn/budget/budg-paylines.htm
The regular R01 interim payline remains at 6%.
Mimi said
Hello everyone,
I got a score of 23, 10th percentile for my NCI R01 and I’m a new investigator. Commons says council review was completed on Sep 17. It’s been a month now but I haven’t been requested to submit JIT. My PO told me that this grant will be funed. However, no words from NIH/Commons yet. I’m becoming more anxious nows. Any suggestions?
Thanks!
SM said
Hi, Mimi,
I am also a new investigator with 10 percentile and went through september council. My PO says to wait till the next fiscal payline is announced. NIAID is transparent with its interim paylines of regular and new investigator. I hope NCI will also announce its paylines soon too. I agree that this puts upon us an unending anxiety and pressure.
gankutsuoh said
I am a New Investigator with 15 percentile (NCI) and went through Scientific Review last month. Council Meeting is scheduled in January 2010. I was requested JIT last week and have just submitted it. My PO also told me that they cannot say anything until the 2010 budget passes the congress.
gankutsuoh said
I was requested JIT by e-mail from on October 11. My R01 (NCI) received Scientific Review on September 23. It was a pretty quick movement.
I had a chance to ask officers at the NCI about info to include in JIT. Some said “Congrats” and others said nothing delighting. Of course, it does not guarantee anything.
Y said
I am a New/ESI investigator with 17 percentile (NIGMS) and was requested JIT. My PO said the application will get serious consideration for funding and ESI will help. How likely can I get funded? I’m getting really worried when I read about the interim payline at NIAID. Wondering if I should do an expedited resubmission while the R01 is still 25-pages.
D said
The good news is that NIGMS usually has a much better payline than NIAID (preliminary 10% for ESIs at NIAID this year). The bad news is that NIGMS hasn’t said what theirs will be for this year.
So, you have ~2.5 weeks to resubmit. The questions you need to ask yourself is if 1). Can you make the changes the reviewers request in that short amount of time and 2) is it worth wasting your only resubmission on a rushed job?
If the reviewers only want cosmetic changes (modest rewrite or drop an aim) then the rush job might be fine. If they want substantial new data or a major change in focus then you are better off waiting.
My guess is that you would be better off taking the time to rewrite your grant in the 12+1 page format and doing a great job responding to the reviewers criticisms.
XJB said
We are in the same boat. Mine is 14% and I am anxiously waiting for funding decision from NIGMS.
Y said
Was your grant reviewed in June or very recently?
I heard that in previous years NIGMS could fund new PI into lower 20s. So even if there is a drop this year, 14% should be ok. 17% could be really iffy.
xjb said
My proposal was reviewed in June. I know that in FY 2008, one NI got funded with 23%. However, since this year many Challenge Grants will be converted to R01, it is hard to tell if 14% is safe or not.
In addition, will NIGMS give more benefit to ESI than NI?
Y said
By the way, I am curious how many challenge grants really come back as R01 in October. Expanding a 12-page challenge grant to a 25-page R01 could still be a lot of work. Based on what I see around me, most challenge grants are not resubmitted; two are resubmitted as R21. Also, based on the grant database that I can access at my institution, I don’t see a substantial increase in the # of R01 submitted in the October cycle.
Or maybe this is just my wishful thinking..
XJB said
Then why does NIAID have so low interim payline?
writedit said
Because, yet again, the federal government is operating under a continuing resolution, and therefore FY09 budget levels … not that there will be much of an increase in FY10 (1.4%, I think). Plus, in addition to recycled challenge grants, the ICs need to anticipate PIs with 1 or 2 years of ARRA funding submitting renewals/new applications to continue these projects.
With regard to the recycled RC1s, I’ve seen them going back as R21s and DP2s … and I suspect a large portion will wait for the 12-p application format next Feb … or even better, the 6-p R21 format. I think I heard the NIH experienced a 15% increase in R01 submissions in October, which may have been due as much to the last-chance to use 25 p as the RC1/RC2 recycling.
XJB said
Considering that the resubmission deadline for R01 is Nov 5, there should be more than 15% increase in R01 submissions in the October round.
D said
Recylced RC1s come in as new applications. Not resubmissions. Any bump in November will come from the rush of 25 page R01s wanting to resbumit before the new page limits.
Y said
xjb – have you got any news from your PO?
I just talked with my PO at NIGMS. he said funding decisions on grants submitted in June will probably be made in November-early December. For my grant, It’ll be around next Jan-Feb.
He also suggested me to wait for the decision on my application, and not to resubmit right away. He said if I resubmit and get a worse score, it could negatively affect the decision on the current application.
XJB said
No, The PO just said it was my own judgment if I should resubmit or not. Maybe I will talk with my PO again tomorrow.
Y said
Please let us know if you get more information from your PO.
My PO said it’s eventually my decision (on resubmission or not), but he kept suggesting me to wait and also talked about the danger of getting a worse score on resubmission. So I’ll listen to him. Although I think my score is really iffy.
Also, did you submit your JIT request? The ERA commons says we should wait for the request from NIH, but the NIGMS has a website asking people scored under 20% to submit a JIT within 2 weeks of summary statement. I forgot to ask my PO about this.
Emaderton3 said
But if you resubmit for the next cycle, you should know by then whether you got funded on the original submission, correct? Then you can ask your PO to just pull your resubmission (at least that’s what my PO said for my K award).
Y said
My grant was reviewed in October and I was asking my PO about an expedited resubmission by November 20 – so if I resubmit, the grant will be reviewed in early Feb (probably before the decision on the current application).
Is that also your case or did you wait for a full cycle (I think only NI R01 can be resubmitted right away..)?
Emaderton3 said
My K award was submitted for the February 12 deadline. It went through council review last month. I can resubmit it for the November 12 deadline. The budget (hopefully) will be passed within the next two months, and they are expecting to make decisions in December. My PO told me that if I get funded she will simply pull my resubmission. Perhaps my dates work differently for this award.
John M said
The K process has some differences than that for R01s. K grants don’t get percentiled and the option for expedited resubmission on the same funding cycle is available only to NI/ESIs with R01 applications that are close to fundable and that have easily addressable concerns on the review.
Y said
NIGMS doesn’t publish their payline so it is unclear to me how much extra points they give to New/ESI PIs and whether there is a difference between these two categories.
When are you going to get the funding decision? I guess your council meeting was in September so shouldn’t you know the answer pretty soon?
laghs said
I am not so worried about 17 percentile at NIGMS. That is also the same percentile I got yesterday (also for NIGMS). I’ll do nothing and wait for the money to come. If even 17 couldn’t make it for an ESI, then I’d just quit science altogether and go back to industry, when my life was much easier without the need to be a serious writer.
Betsy said
I’m a new investigator (first grant app) and just received an impact/priority score of 36 for an R03 to NCI. No percentile yet, study section was last thurs/fri. Thoughts?
James said
I’m in the same boat. I got a 38 on my R03 (NIAAA), and it is my first grant as well. It has been over a month since the council review. I was told we wouldn’t know about paylines until the federal budget gets approved, but that a 38 on a R03 just might squeak through this time. Definitely resubmit as we probably won’t get a definitive answer before the next submission deadline.
writedit said
These are nice scores for first-time grant applications! (I dare say most don’t get scored the first time in). However, you won’t get a payline break as new investigators for R03s. The mechanism does have a higher payline than R01s and R21s, but time – especially an FY10 budget – will tell whether scores in the 30s will be funded.
Betsy said
James, I don’t have my critiques yet, so I can’t really resubmit. How long after your study section did it take to get the critiques? My council review date isn’t until Jan. 2010, so it looks like I have awhile to wait.
Is it appropriate to call the PO and feel him out about funding possibilities? When I talked to him about my proposal idea, he was very kind and open.
If one uses the conversion formulas proposed, using 5 as the multiplier gives me a score of 230, just outside the 210 payline. But 3.5 gives me 191. I like the 3.5 formula better!
And boo for no payline break for R03s!!
James said
Ahh. I misunderstood what you had written. You just went through the scientific review process and gotten your score, not council review. It took about a month after I got my impact score until I got the reviewer comments. I, too, missed the first resubmission date, because i did not have my comments. Mind you that my grant was scored in Mid-June, and I am still told it will be several months until I know if that score is fundable.
And there is no official break for being a new investigator, but maybe an unofficial ‘push’ to all those wonderful POs out there? I mean…it is just $100k right? Don’t they have that in the back of their desk drawyers? between the couch cushions?
Not having percentiles is really a killer. Especially when our only comparisons are to the ARRA grants, which is not a fair comparison. My colleague was funded with a score of 45 on his challenge R01 and he was in the 14th percentile.
the waiting is the hardest part….besides actually having to do the work of course…
EL said
I am a new investigator, my R01 was scored 15 percentile and 31 priority score in June 2009 study section. NHLBI FY2009 payline is 15/20 percentile for established/new investigators. The council meeting was held this Tuesday (10/20/09), I just saw my eRA common updated as “Council review completed”, but no further info is available. I would like to know that 15 percentile will be with in the payline for the new investigator under FY2010 budget plan. please suggest.
D said
Sounds like you have a great chance of getting funded. Your program officer will know more. It is possible that they may hold off funding you until later in the cycle or until NIH gets a budget from Congress. They don’t want to make promises now that they can’t keep later.
Kumar said
The NHLBI has phased out the special paylines for new investigators. Also, was your grant the first submission (A0)? Then you have a great chance. The reason I ask that is because, NHLBI is planning to pay based on the ammendment status. So, A0 will be compared against each other, A1, and A2 with their counterparts. The success rate willl be the same for A0, A1, and A2. Neverthless, the percentiles will be re-calculated based on ammendment status.
Good luck!
xjb said
If NHLBI phased out the special payline for new investigators,
does this mean that only ESI will be treated favorably?
writedit said
Yes. They’re trying to get away from funding 82-year-old new investigators, though I’m not sure if it means they’ll go cold turkey or just lower the non-ESI new investigator break gradually.
Kumar said
Yes, the ESI will still be treated favorably!
Spookyfaust said
Does anyone have an idea of where the FY 2010 budget is (as it makes it way through congress)? The official government websites are of little use in providing real time updates.
Waiting to figure out what my NIAID K01 priority score actually means….
Thanks.
Qpang said
I am new investigator and qualified as an ESI. I got a score of 30 in June cycle, my percentile is 19% (NHLBI). The NIAID’s new payline really scared me. I was feeling good before this new came out. Now I wonder if I should talk to my program office. Can anybody give me some suggestions about what I say with PO. Thanks a lot!
D said
Definitely talk to your PO. They should have the best inside information about your chances of getting funded. 19% sounds border line to me but each Institute has there own funding plans.
Even though NIAID has the second highest budget it also tends to get a lot more apps than other institutes so their payline tends to be lower.
John M said
Call your PO and directly ask about your chances of being funded. Also ask about whether you should re-submit an amended application for the next cycle. It is probably better to resubmit now for the Nov 5 deadline with the 25 page format than to wait until February. That would be the first cycle of FY2011 and would require reformatting for the 12 page limit and subjecting yourself to another whole unknown budget situation.
I am also an ESI with an R01 in the FY2010 first cycle (submitted as an A1 in March, reviewed in June). I called my PO the week before the council meeting to discuss whether I should plan on resubmitting for the Nov 5 deadline. At a score of 25/13% he suggested that I should not resubmit. Though he wouldn’t commit officially, he did speculate off the record that the ESI payline would probably be in the 18-20 range so you are going to be close. I was also told that final paylines might not be available for several weeks.
I also asked him about the NIAID interim payline and was told that NHLBI paylines are usually higher and that NIAID has so much of their money already targeted to specific programs that there isn’t as much money available for general R01s. Also as previously mentioned, NIAID gets a lot of applications.
Good luck.
Y said
Did your PO predict that the payline will go down a few % pts for FY2010?
Qpang said
Thanks for your responses.
I have three more questions:
1. Should I make an appointment by email with my PO and then call him/her? Or just pick up the phone and call. My friend told me that because POs are always busy, sometimes they are not near by their phone.
2. I have another friend, who got 36 score, but his percentile is higher than mine, 18%. He was assigned to a different study section, but in the same institute as mine. So, how is the payline calculated? Is it based on the scores of all the applicants in one institute or that in different study sections?
3. Is there anywhere I could find the information regarding the number of applicants in certain cycle or physical year?
Thanks a lot!
Peng
D said
@Qpang my suggestions are:
1). Email first and then call. Repeat until you get in contact.
2). Funding almost always goes by percentile. Percentiles were introduced to even out the scoring variability between study sections. But, if you are on the bubble your score can also be taken into account.
3). CSR publishes that info. But, it won’t be too helpful. Submit your grant when it is in optimal shape. I believe that trying to submit for the “right” cycle doesn’t help much. The random variability of scoring overwhelms any effect.
John M said
Call or email the PO. They are going to be busy these days, but my PO in NHLBI has been amenable to my calling. I called after I got my score and I left a voice mail and he called me back later that day. When I called last week, he picked up the phone and answered my question on the spot.
Paylines for R01s are based on percentages. That is how comparisons can be made more fairly across different study sections that may rate harder or easier. The NIH website has details on how percentages are calculated, but basically they are calculated within study sections, but for study sections with less than 25 applications in a given cycle, the scores are percentiled across the institute. My grant was reviewed in a special study section because of conflicts with a former mentor being on the initially assigned study section and my summary statement states that it was percentiled against “Total CSR base”.
qpang said
Thank you very much! I learned a lot for your responses.
Recently I begin to realize that I have not paid much attention to NIH policy during the last several years. The only thing I know is 3 numbers, 15% for regular PIs, 20 for new investigators and 25% for ESIs.
It seems to me that even the 25% for ESI is conditional, which is “if expedited administrative review resolves summary statement comments”. Does it mean if the review can not be resolved, even you are ESI with a percentile, e.g, 21% , you still will not get funded? Based on what facts will the POs think the review is reolved?
I have been curious how the 25% is determined to fund ESI. According the released NIH policy on 10/31/2008 (http://grants.nih.gov/grants/guide/notice-files/not-od-09-013.html), the NIH intends to support New Investigators at success rates comparable to those for established investigators submitting new applications. Does it mean that all the NIs (including ESIs) are grouped, and 10% of them (established PI has a payline of 10%) will be funded? The last person’s percentile in that 10% of NIs will be considered as the final payline for ESI?
Thanks alot!
whimple said
You’re wasting valuable time worrying about this. You should be revising your grant for rapid resubmission this November before you have to cut it in half due to the new page limits. Other than a couple of wasted weeks, there’s no downside to a resubmission.
John M said
Success rate and payline percentage aren’t quite the same thing. Your percentage score is a measure of how well your application was rated in relation to others in the study section, and the payline is a level set by the institute that will allow funding number of grants that can be covered by the budget. Success rates is basically the number of grants funded divided into the number of applications submitted. It may be higher or lower overall than the payline percentage depending on budget size of funded projects, number of applications submitted in a given year and other factors.
See this document for more explanation: http://www.nih.gov/about/researchresultsforthepublic/successrates.pdf
Please do provide an update on what your PO says. The info would be helpful to other NHLBI applicants is gauging where they stand.
qpang said
Thank for your suggestion. The downside is that I only have one more chance for resubmission which is ready yet at this moment.
qpang said
I will, thanks!
Dimitri said
I am in a different boat that many of you, as my R21 doesn’t have percentile scores. I got a 25, which was great to see on the Commons page! It was the June 2009 review cycle, and council met in September. My PO has been really helpful, and told me that he couldn’t give me any indication of my funding chances since there is no budget yet. But he did suggest (back in August) that I reapply since I had very minor changes. I resubmitted in September (it’s a special deadline). So now I have my R21 with a 25 score sitting and waiting for funding, but at least my resubmission is already in the queue for review (and can be withdrawn if the other is funded).
I wish I had percentile scores to know where I stand, though. It is frustrating to wait (but better than having a worse score…I’ve been there before).
sp said
Does anyone have a feel for a 27 priority score / 28 percentile at NIGMS for ESI. A1 submission.
thanks
laghs said
The score is great but the percentile is a little low. I am surprised to see a 27 score with only 28%tile… For my study section, a score of 30 equals 12%tile. According to my PO at NIGMS, a grant with below 20%tile will be invited to submit JIT. Between 20-30 will be in the grey area. Above 30%tile has little chance (although still in the grey area if <40). But your app is still hopeful since you are an ESI. It is really hard to say at this time.
Y said
what did your PO say?
I am surprised that a score of 27 only gets 28%..
XJB said
If several applications got score 20, then it is very easy for an application with score 27 goes to 28%.
Kumar said
I am an established investigator. I got a priority score of 32 and 22 percentile on a new RO1 (NHLBI) {first submission (A0)]. The NHLBI website says starting 2010 FY, the RO1s will be re-percentiled by the institute such that A0s will be compared against Aos, A1s against A1s, and so on. They feel this wasy, they will be able to fund > 60% applications to Ao applicants. I did a JIT request from the NHLBI. My PO says paylines are not yet decided, and she doubts if my grant will make it, as they will be conservative as the NHLBI expects a flood of unfunded RC1s. So she says I may want to re-submit. But I am a bit confused about the JIT request. I have been told JIT request means my application is being considered seriously. Is that true? Should I wait until decisions are made, or re-submit. I am thinking of re-submitting in March, but that will mean I will have to do the 12 page format. Will this put me in a big disadvantage? The comments are very mild, so it is easy to fix.
The NHLBI is also conservative in Octiber council and then they move up gradually. I would hate to go through the painful revision process, if they pick up the original later in the fiscal year.
Please advice.
D said
The JIT request is now standard for unsolicited apps that score 20 percentile or better.
“The 20 percent-or-less policy is NIH-wide for all PIs. Here’s a hypothetical example of how it works: if NIAID’s payline is at the 12 percentile and an application receives a percentile of 20, the Center for Scientific Review would send a standard automailer.”
http://www.niaid.nih.gov/ncn/qa/justintime.htm#findout
Kumar said
I did not get the JIT request from CSR (erA commons). I got the request from the Grants Management Office of the NHLBI. Also, my percentile is 22 not 20!
qpang said
Does anybody know how the policy that 60% of A0s will be funded works.
If only 2 A0s are submitted in one cycle, and both get a traditional percentile of 80%, will one of these 2 A0s be funded? If that is true, it is ridiculous.
I would think that the A0s should first meet a minimal percentile or score and then can be funded under the new 60% A0s policy.
Any thoughts?
Kumar said
I did not say they will fund 60% of Aos. What they say is that if they rank the percentiles of Ao, A1, and A2 grants separately, and also ensure that % appications funded for A0, A1, and A2 are the same, then if they look at the final numbers, they expect, based on past history that over 60% of the awarded grants will be A0s.
For example, if they got a total of 1200 applications in which there are 700 A0s, 400 A1s, and 100 A2s. If they fund 20% of the applications under each category, then the final funded grants will be 140 A0s, 80 A1s, and 20 A2s. So of the total 240 funded grants, 140 will be A0s, which is about 58%. In this way, they can avoid pick good science early and avoid resubmissions.
They came up with this idea as they noticed after looking at past history that >75% applications which received a percentile of 25 or better were funded in the A1 or A2 versions. This is alo the reason they have eliminated A2s.
I hope this is clear.
qpang said
It was released as “…..make >60% of its grant awards to A0 submissions”. http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/funding/policies/rsr.htm.
So, I was wrong, it should not be that 60% of A0s will be funded, instead, 60% of funds will be allocated to support A0s.
If that is the case, how could this be possible, “…….so that success rates for A0, A1, and A2 applications are equal, http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/funding/policies/rsr.htm. ” Unless, there are much more A0s than A1s or A2s, just as you assumed (700 A0s vs 400 A1s vs 100A2s).
Boyle said
2010 federal budget was finally signed by President Obama yesterday. How long does it take for institutes like NHLBI to decide payline after budget approval (considering that their October council meeting is over)?
laghs said
But that was only about the defense budget.
D said
I agree with laghs. I think that the bill signed today was the National Defense Authorization Act. It funds the DoD (and some other stuff) but not NIH. At least not this year.(http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2647)
The general answer is that NIH (or at least NIAID since few other Institutes have published paylines yet) already has plans to raise the paylines as soon as the Prez signs a budget. The bigger unknown/worry now is how many recycled RC1s come in for the Feb. deadline.
xjb said
What do u mean by the following sentence.
The bigger unknown/worry now is how many recycled RC1s come in for the Feb. deadline.
To my understanding, the proposals submitted for the Feb deadline will be funded using the FY 2011 budget, right?
John M said
February 2010 deadline grants will by on FY2011 cycle. The question for paylines for FY2010 is how many RC1s came back as R01s for the Oct deadline.
D said
There are ~18,000 unfunded 12 page RC1s (with reviewer comments) sitting on PIs computers. It won’t be too hard to resubmit them as new 12 page R01s in Feb, 2010. The more apps that come in the lower the payline is.
xjb said
However, those RC1 resubmitted as R01s in Feb 2010 have nothing to do with the FY 2010 budget. I remember that writedit has mentioned that there is around 15% increase in the number of R01 submissions for the Oct 2009 cycle. Therefore, we shall be able to estimate the number of RC1s submitted for FY 2010.
qpang said
Will those RC1s coming back as RO1 for Oct 2009 cycle be treated as A0s or A1s?
writedit said
RC1s coming back as R01s or R21s (at any cycle) will be A0s – new applications, not amended resubmissions.
qpang said
Is it because those RC1s did not get review comments?
writedit said
Whether an RC1 was scored or not does not matter. The research proposed in an RC1 application will need to be submitted to a different mechanism and hence as a new application (versus amended submission). The NIH covers this in its ARRA FAQ:
and in the notice issued last May cautioning PIs not to recycle their RC1s in June:
writedit said
I’ll try to do a post on this when I get past some grant deadlines, but many of you might like to read NIAID’s article on Rating Applications: Scores and Percentiles, which does a nice job of illustrating why applications with the same Impact Score have different percentiles and how percentiling is used to counter the tendency of study sections to begin clustering scores at the lower end of the scale.
Kal said
Hi Writeedit,
Who actually makes the recommendations for new paylines at NCI? Is it a committee of advisors to the Dirctor? My program director said she is not involved. I really hope they take the problems associated with the new scoring system into consideration. I read a blog in which the study section members described their experiences. They are asked to follow the new critique format. starting with the overall impact, significance, then investigators. There are no detailed discussions of the approach (so familiar to the prior way of doing business). So the rest of the panel, who for the most part haven’t actually read the application being discussed, have no idea what the proposal is about. There seems to be lot of frustration there. So, in the absence of vigorous input from the panel, I can see the scores are subjected to different interpretations, and that members voting in whole numbers. Four (very good) can easily become five (good). Any info that you can share with us will be appreciated. Thanks.
writedit said
I believe the IC’s office of extramural management (or equivalent) calculates the paylines using a standard formula (taking into account the budgeted $ for that mechanism, # applications reviewed, average award size for mechanism) and historical data for each funding mechanism. NIAID probably, as usual, describes it best on their Funding Decisions Tutorial. However, whether they stick with a strict threshold or not, and whether they release their target payline, varies widely from IC to IC. NIMH keeps the flexibility to consider anything from 10-20th percentile for funding (but no guarantees, so a 19th percentile could get funded while an 11th does not). NIAID and a handful of others lay out their paylines in detail. Which is better (or worse): knowing your application is outside the payline, or not being sure where it sits in the pile?
laghs said
Writedit, could you tell when a new investigator will lose his new PI status – does it happen at the time the award letter is issued, or earlier? My council meeting will be held in late January. Currently, I have another R01 to be resubmitted next month. It seems to me this grant will be reviewed in Feb 2010 with my ESI status intact. I wonder whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. I heard some reviewers are harsh to new investigators. One of my friends suggests that I hold the resubmission until my ESI status is clearly gone. But I don’t want to wait until FY2011. Thanks for your input.
qpang said
ESIs who have a percentile >5 but <=10 points above the regular R01 payline, can be funded if expedited administrative review resolves summary statement.
So, who will be your administrative reviewer? Do you have to revise your proposal, write an INTRODUCTION FOR RESUBMISSION and send them in a regular cycle for an expedited administrative reviewer? Or the adminstrative review only requires your responses to the summary statement? Thanks!
Kumar said
The administrative review requires only your responses to the summary statement. It should be submitted to the PO, and not to CSR. You will not be allowed to expand the project or make major changes to the design or increase the budget. If the response is written well, it is quite easy. I hope this helps.
qpang said
Thanks a lot!
qpang said
Hi Kumar, is it your own or your friend’s experience? Or is it your guess? Thanks!
Chris said
I just received a priority score of 19 for a K01 submitted to the NIDDK. My PO has been non-committal and said I should be “cautiously optimistic”. My immediate concern is that I currently have a job offer that doesn’t allow me to take the K award, but I would much rather just take the K and stay put. Any opinions as to whether this score is within the funding range. Thanks in advance.
Emaderton3 said
In line with the issue brought up by Chris, what if you get a K award, which is supposed to fund 75-100% time (=salary) depending how you budgeted it, and then you get a faculty position? Obviously your salary would go up substantially with a faculty position, but the amount of money on the K award is no longer 75-100% of your salary. But, you are supposed to dedicate, at least for a K25, 75% of your time. How does that work then?
John M said
This depends on your institution. The K provides $75K for salary + fringes, but the institution can pay whatever it wants. 75% of your effort must be dedicated to the K project. The issue is how your institution accounts for the additional salary. For example if they pay you $150K but the K grant covers $75K, and you do 25% teaching or clinical work, then you have 25% of the salary that is not covered. At my institution, they do something called cost sharing, in which the unfunded portion of the research effort is charged (or cost shared) to another source of funds.
Emaderton3 said
So in your example, there is 25% that is not covered. Let’s say it is cost shared so you work on some other project or something. Overall, the K is only 50% of your salary and effort. Does that become an issue with NIH then?
gankutsuoh said
I am a K22 awardee from NCI. While salary can be any % (less than $75,000), effort measured by calendar months must be greater than 9 months. They care about only % in calendar months but not in salary. The discrepancy in % between salary and calendar months is OK for NIH/NCI.
Emaderton3 said
Thanks. The K awards state that 75% of your time must be spent on research. I have a friend who claims that if you read the time commitment throughout all of the information for the K awards that it never states anywhere that 75% of your time must be spent on the research ONLY in the K award. So for example, one could work on other research or grants. Opinions?
writedit said
Essentially, all your time is spent developing your career as an independent academic researcher. Assuming you aren’t running off to do particle physics research when you should be studying cancer biology, and assuming you are on track with the preparation of manuscripts and RPG proposals (especially R01) in line with your stated career goals, you should be fine.
From the K01 PA (same language for K07, K08, K23, K25):
K02:
gankutsuoh said
I have 4 grants including K22 (3 PIs and 1 Co-Investigator). My effort is 9.00, 2.76, 0.12, 0.12 months for each, which means that I currently spend 100% in research. It is critical that there is no overlap in budget and science. As mentioned in my other post, I hope that my R01 pending will join this.
Emaderton3 said
Thanks, that is really good to know. Gankutsuoh, what are your other grants (R21, R03, etc.)?
gankutsuoh said
One is a Scholar Award from American Society of … (hidden) and other 2 are from private research foundations.
Ak said
Talking to PO’s have become much of a problem than help. The folks whose grants have not scored know by themselves what they have to plan in-terms of addressing the summary statement or even doing experiments. However, colleagues who have scored well or are on the border face immense mental challenge in order to decide. It is just too much of a risk!!…… to the extent that you stop enjoying the science. Please do not get me wrong, I also understand PO’s situation, however, on our side, the funding of a grant can impact our career and job prospects. I wish things would have been more transparent. I communicated with two POs with my grant with same score of 10 percentile in the same IC, adopt a different talking tone with the funding of my grant. On top I’m a new investigator. I am in the most helpless situation. Once again, with this mail I do not intend to offend anyone and I respect all.
Thanks for not misunderstanding me.!!
D said
Keep in mind that, in general, PO’s do not have much more information than what is publicly available. Because of the new scoring system and rejiggering of the percentiles they do not have any history to inform their opinions either.
And, I am sure every PO wants to avoid the dreaded “but you told me I was funded!” phone call.
dent study said
My R03 (new investigator) got impact/priority score of 40 in NIDCR. Any idea abou the funding chance?
AK said
Absolutely, I understand the PO’s role- I’m just sharing the state of mind of that most of us are going through.
I am not sure I have mentioned to anybody about getting funded by phone call or email.
Kumar said
EL: you mentioned you got a 15 percentile for an RO1 assigned to NHLBI. Was this an A0, A1, or A2? As stated in their website on October 30, 2009, the payline will depend up the ammendment status also. Did you a JIT request from NHLBI? i am not talking about the automatic email from CSR,, which you may have received soon after receiving your summary statemnt. If you got a JIT request from the grants management specialist of the NHLBI, then I think you have a great chance. Also, if you are an ESI, you are almost cetainly in.
Good luck!
Kumar
EL said
That was a A1 revised submission. I have not done my JIT yet, it was only posted on my eRA common site after the score posting, but I asked our Institute grant manager, she told me wait until receive the email notice from NIH then submit the JIT. I only receive one email from NHLBI one month ago ask me submit a Foreign Clearance Form, since I have a collaborator outside US. The bad news is I am a New Investigator, but no-ESI, and NHLBI will stop give the extra 5 percentile for no-ESI in the FY2010. I will be considered as the established investigators, and use that payline which was 15 in the FY09.
Kumar said
EL: The email from NHLBI for foregin clerance is a good sign. Did you talk to your PO? I last heard that the NHLBI will post their paylines on their website this week or next week. There will be 3 paylines A0, A1, and A2. Even if the A1 falls below the 15 percentile, it is likely to go up when they do get a budget. The increased RO1 applications due to unfunded RC1s should not affect too much, as they should received the new RO1s already. The Feb applications will fall undeer 2011 budget.
I wish you the best, and I will be cautiously optimsitic if I were you.
Good luck!
Kumar
EL said
Kumar: Thanks for your info. I talked to my PO last week. Basic he told me he knew nothing more than I did. They were waiting for the NIH FY10 budget, and he said the proposed budget only slight higher than FY09, so the payline should be flat. Did your PO told your there will be 3 paylines for A0, A1 and A2? I was pretty happy when I had my score in June, but now I am very worry about my funding. Since the two NHLBI new policies: no more 5 percentile favor for new investigator, and calculate percentile A0 against A0, A1 against A1. Do you know if NHLBI will re-calculate the percentile based on the new policy? And how they will do it? I think the percentile was calculated in each study section, and obviously, not every grant applications in one study section goes to NHLBI, no other IC has declare to adopt that policy yet. Thank you! EL.
Kumar said
My PO did not tell me there will be three paylines. She only said they will more generous with Aos than A1s and so on. But based on their website, it is clear thay will re-percentile them base on Aos, A1, A2, etc. If you have time, please read the 2008 October Council minutes. Also, read articles published by the NHLBI director Nabel in Circulation and Blood in 2009.
This is how they will re-pecentile the grants:
For example, If the NHLBI decided to fund 15% of the applications (I did not mean percentile). I strictly mean pecentage success, i.e. if there are 1000 applications (including unscored), then they will fund 150 (15% success rate).
They will use the study section percentiiles from CSR to rank order the applications based on A0, A1, and A2. So, if there are 600 A0s, 300 A1s, and 100 A2s, then they will make sure the success rate will be equal in each category. So, they will fund 90 A0s, 45 A1s, and 15 A2s.
This will lead to 60% of the awarded grants belonging to Aos, 30% to A1s, and 10% to the A2s.
I hope I am clear.
Kumar
qpang said
Kumar, I think that “60% awarded grants for A0s” is questionable. As I said before, the percentage for A0s really depends on how many A0s are submitted.
Why not assume 600 A1, 300 A0 and 100 A2, such that they will fund 90 A1s, 45 A0s and 15 A2s at an equal success rate of 15% (as you assumed). This will lead to only 30% of grants awarded to A0s. In that case, will they drastically increase the payline for A0s to force the percentage of A0s to be 60%? I doubt it.
Kumar said
I said 600 Aos not on the basis of assumption, but on the data available during the last 3-4 years. Like the NHLBI has said in their website and publications, only 25% of Aos get a fundable score. Most grants are funded after revision A1 and A2. So, they came up with the idea to separately rank the A0, A1, and A2, and this is expected to lead to about 60% grants to A0. If they routinely receive many more A1s than A0s, then they would not come up with this policy. If your theory is correct, then they will fund twice as many A1s than A0s, and this would defeat the purpose. I do agree they will not forcibly award 60% grants to A0s.
sp said
after speaking with the PO, I was told to send directly to the PO a one-page answer to the reviewer critiques of my A1 application to NIGMS that scored 28%tile with 27 priority score. I am ESI. Does someone have an interpretation of this scenario. thanks
D said
My interpretation is that they are considering funding you as an “exception”. That is outside the normal payline. But, I have no idea how many of these NIGMS proposes and how many they fund. They want your responses to support the argument this in front of Council. Other institutes only do this for ones they are pretty sure they will pay.
So, it sounds hopeful.
Y said
This is interesting. When I called my NIGMS PO last week, I asked him about the opportunity of writing a response for expedited administrative review, he said NIGMS does not do that. Probably it differs from PO to PO. I think it is a good sign that you were asked to submit a response.
qpang said
In addition, ESI applications on which all named principal investigators are ESI investigators that are >5 but <=10 percentile points above the regular R01 payline may undergo an expedited review to resolve comments in the summary statement."
Does "all named principal investigators" here include co-PIs in an application?
Thanks!
laghs said
My understanding is that this >5 and <10 rule is only stated by NHLBI. May not be the case for NIGMS, where sp's grant is being considered.
writedit said
Only PIs count toward the special ESI payline. For a multiple PI application, all the PIs must be ESI. The status of any other senior/key personnel (co-investigators etc.) are not considered.
AK said
When do you think NIH will start funding FY2010, knowing the fact that there is backlog in the budget/spending bill and the HHS bill has not even gone to the senate voting- seems far away. Specifically, February submissions that have a start date of December 1- What happens here?
Kumar said
I do not think we need to worry that much. Since NIH is under CR, they will continue to pay from December 1. it is just that they will pay according to 2009 payline and will be conservative.
Kumar
qpang said
Should we expect an adjusted percentile coming out first before judging our chance to be funded?
writedit said
Your percentile won’t change – that is linked to the study section in which your grant was reviewed. The IC’s payline may improve later in the FY … but of course, we still don’t know any paylines except NIAID’s interim R01 (6th/10th percentile for established/new investigators).
John M said
What happen is that the grants start late. I have a grant in the same cycle with a likely fundable score. I am not expecting to see money by Dec 1. Based on what my PO told me last week on the telephone, there may not even be funding decisions by Dec. 1.
Dimitri said
My PI said the exact same thing John M just said. It’s frustrating, but I understand their position as well.
laghs said
Has anybody ever excluded study section members as potential reviewers? I have a competitor sitting on the roster. It would be very helpful if I could exclude him.
Kumar said
Laghs: You may call your SRO and express this concern. He or she may ask for an email explaining why you would like to exclude this person. If they are satisfied, they will request the member to be in conflict and leave the room when your application is discussed. So, the bottom line is you need to have a convincing case!
Good luck!
Kumar
CD0 said
If you are going to try to convice the SRO to exclude a reviewer who sits regularly in the study section and have a good reason, I suggest that you also try convince him/her to exclude your application from the CD that this reviewer will get with all the materials to be discussed…
In any case, consider that your application will be discussed by a bunch of experts and nobody wants to appear full of obvious prejudices, negative opinions and bad criteria in front of the entire study section that may review your own grant a few months later…
Tricky matter…
laghs said
Thanks, Kumar and CDO. I will try my best on this. Fortunately, this person is an ad hoc member, so things might be a little easier.
grantlover said
Does a priority score of 45 for R43 (SBIR) submitted to NIAID is good enough for consideration for funding.? Thanks for the help.
writedit said
Hmm. That 45 is probably on the edge, probably above what the interim payline will be. The question is how other SBIRs are being scored in the new system.
Kal said
Writeedit,
Do you know if they will set new paylines as normal (usual) and the ARRA (slightly higher) for 2010 at NCI? I assume the ARRA funding is still available for this to be done. I have an RO3 which scored 48 (on the edge as you will say), hoping to get it funded. The priority scores were 210 (usual) and 225 (ARRA). Thanks.
writedit said
I could be wrong, but I don’t foresee any ICs setting ARRA paylines for FY10 or picking up any more beyond payline awards with stimulus funding. There could still be some supplements funded with ARRA $ (NHGRI has its FY10 admin supplement deadline set for Dec 1, for example), and there are a number of outstanding ARRA-related awards to be made (only one open competition, with several in various stages of peer review, such as S10, C06, R15, and small business opportunities).
gankutsuoh said
My PO has just e-mailed me that “the NCI FY2010 interim payline is 15% and that the “Star R01″ (for New Investigators) payline is 20%. It could go higher once a budget passes, but it will not go lower.” The PO has also stated “Congrats!!!” Funded!!!
gankutsuoh said
My PO has let me know that it was decided yesterday that the interim NCI FY2010 payline for R01 is 15% and that the “Star R01″ (for New Investigators) pay line is 20%. It could go higher once a budget has passed, but it will not go lower. The PO has also mentioned “Congratulations!” and I am funded!!! Unfortunately, no info is available about other grants.
AK said
That’s a good news. I hope my PO at NCI is also aware of this!! This will really help many of us.
whimple said
I’ve lost track of what the fiscal years mean. Does FY refer to the date the grant was submitted, or to the date the grant will start being paid on? Is the start of FY2010 October 1, 2009? How exactly does this work?
D said
I believe it means the date the grant is awarded. So, if you submit June 2009 it will be paid with FY2010 dollars.
Y said
Is this NCI FY2010 interim payline better than its 2009 payline (without ARRA)? If so that’s encouraging…
laghs said
About the same. The official FY2009 payline was 16. But obviously this FY10 interim payline is conservative, and it could go higher later.
Y said
Historically, does NIGMS have better paylines than NCI?
laghs said
Yes, look at this: http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Research/Application/trends.htm
Y said
Did you talk to your PO about the chance of 17% for ESI at NIGMS? I remember we have the same percentile.
From what I heard from my PO, it is at least encouraging.
laghs said
My PO said that I should be “cautiously optimistic”. But he also said that anyone with 1-20 percentile should be “cautiously optimistic”. So I guess this means quite positive. I would be really really surprised (and frustrated) if a 17 percentile for an ESI wouldn’t get funded. Given the newly released interim paylines from other institutes, I don’t expect any major change in payline at NIGMS for FY11.
peluhukay said
Just received notice this morning from my PO that the my K01 was selected for funding (K01 thru NCRR)!!! Just have to wait for the NOGA to make it official, which should occur within a few weeks time (PO wasn’t sure exactly when this would happen). So, it looks like NCRR is making budget decisions now.
asaid said
My R21 application for NIAID received an impact score of 23 from the BDMA study panel. I talked to the PO, he said it is a great score but can’t say anything more because the budget is not set. This was a resubmission but if we had to resubmit practically speaking there is really not much to improve in the application. NIAID has a very conservative payline for R21 (it was 137 last year). I talked to some other panel members and they said 23 will most likely get funded but I am not very sure what will happen. Any comments?
writedit said
Congratulations to all of you finally getting some good news about your applications! Thanks so much for sharing your updates here so others know where they might stand.
gankutsuoh said
writedit-
Thank you for providing us with this great site. You and your site have been so helpful.
-Gankutsuoh
AK said
I am new investigator with a 10%ile. I wrote to my PO after I learned from one of the folks (thanks) who posted that the NCI’s interim pay-lines for regular/New investigator are 15/20. The PO wrote to me back that this is true, and my situation is hopeful. However, the PO mentioned that this has to be also approved by National Cancer Advisory Board. Now, my grant has already completed the September council. Now, I do not know what this means for me. Should I inform him that my application has completed council review.
I thank all who participate on this site- this is a great site. To put it simple ” this makes life a lot easier, and most importantly, help us prepare best for the next step”
Kumar said
The NHLBI has just posted its 2010 paylines. It is 16 for A0, 9 for A1, and 7 for A2. For ESI it will be 5-10 pecentile higher. I am established investigator who got 22 percentile on an A0 submission. Usually the NLHBI very conservative in October council, and percentiles usuallly go up aftet budget is passed etc, and they do say that paylines will be updated throughout the year. My situation is tricky. I have only one more chance, and my pecentile needs to drop to single digits to be considered as an A1. So, should I wait and hope thr payline reaches 22 at some point? Please advice.
writedit said
I too think the likelihood of a 6-pt jump in the A0 payline is low (NIAID is hoping to go up 4 pts to the 10th percentile), though not impossible. You do have a tricky situation, especially with the concurrent drop in page length and overhaul of the research narrative format/content. Who knows what will happen with the Cycle I application reviews. On the other hand, study sections will have figured out that A1s won’t be in line for $ without remarkably low scores, so it will be interesting to see what happens with A1 and A2 scores next round. If you think you’ll have a killer A1 ready in March, there’s no need to wait certainly. And you could shop the proposal with the AHA (applications due Feb 2, 2010).
gankutsuoh said
All I can say is that I would be very very surprised if the payline reaches 22 and that I would definitely avoid a (re)submission for FY2011.
Kumar said
Gankutsuoh:
Thanks for your advice. But I did not re-submit in November (for May 2010 council). So I am planning to re-submit in March 2010, so it will be for 2011 fiscal year, which I am afraid will be worse than this year!
My PO was telling me the last time I spoke to her that they were expecting many applications because of unfunded RC1 applications coming back as new RO1s (A0s). So, since they mention that teh sucess rate will be the same for A0s, A1s, and A2s, dont you think I still stand a chance with my 22 percentile? The reason I say this is because: for example, if they received 600 Aos, and if the success rates was 15%, then they will award 90 A0s in this council. The unfunded RC1s that were submitted in October 2009 will be considered for the May 2010 council. Also, A2s are being phased out, so in May 2010, there may say 900 A0s, and 350 A1s and very few A2s. So, if the success rate is still 15% (the NHLBI maintains the same success rate througout the fY), then they would fund 135 A0s, as against 90-100 in October and Feb councils. So, is there stiill a chance, my grant will be picked up in May 2010? Of course, I will submit in March and do the best I can. Just a thought!
Any comments!
gankutsuoh said
Sure, anything is possible on theory. Also, the payline is just one of many factors, though most significant admittedly, for a PO to pick up a grant. If I were you, I will do the following before resubmitting in March. 1) First, check the term of possible reviewers of your A0. Will they be still on the roaster in June, October 2010 and review your A1? There is no guarantee that the same reviewers will review your A1. 2) Look into the possibility to have other ICs with much better payline (i.e. NIGMS) review your A1. You are required to significantly change your A1 including a format. Why not also changing the reviewing IC? Asking in the cover letter is easy and free. 3) Consider passing the March resubmission. If you submit A1 in March and get worse score in June, it might negatively affect the PO’s funding decision on your A0 following the May Council meeting. Just my 2 cents.
Mark said
I’m an established investigator that got a 13th percentile on an A1 NHLBI R01. Because of my original submission date, I’m entitled to an A2 submission. What do you think the chances are of the payline rising 4% points to cover this? I will prepare to submit in March but am wondering if you have an intuition about this.
I also want to thank you for hosting this site. It feels like you are helping many people.
writedit said
NIAID hopes to raise their standard R01 payline 4 percentile points from the 6th to the 10th percentile … but they’re pretty low to start with. It’s not out of the question, but I think you are smart to plan for a March resubmission – although it means cutting your research narrative in half (more than probably). My guess is that the A1 and A2 paylines would go up at most a point or two given NHLBI’s emphasis on making at least 60% of their awards to A0 applications.
Speaking of A2s, everyone should keep in mind that 2010 is the last year for submitting their grandfathered second amended application (resubmission). No more will be accepted after Jan 2011.
And you all do a great job helping each other here – many, many thanks for all the personal anecdotes and tips from POs passed along as comments!
EL said
Mark: I have a similar status as you. I am a NI got 15 percentile on A1 NHLBI R01. Due to the NHLBI 2 new policies: no 5 percentile favor to NI, and rebalancing success rate among A0, A1 and A2, I am unlikely be funded, and I have to do an A2 resubmission in next March cycle.
My question is: does anyone know if there is an opportunity that my application could be considered by another Institute. In the eRA common, it was primarily assigned to NHLBI, but National Institute Aging was also listed. If NIA posted a payline that higher than 15, can I ask to switch to NIA.
Another question, can I ask to change primary assignment Institute when I submit the A2 in the next March cycle, if I still submit it to NHLBI, I have to get score better than 7 percentile to be funded.
Please advice.
writedit said
You can request IC assignment in your cover letter, but you’ll have wanted to talk with a PO in NIA about this first to be sure they will accept it as a primary assignment. I don’t know what your research is, but if other ICs, such as aging, might be interested, by all means start talking with appropriate POs in the other ICs. You don’t have to stick with the IC assigned by CSR (though it does mean NHLBI was willing to accept the proposal as the primary sponsor).
It’s too late to change assignment for your A1, but you can certainly make this request in the cover letter for your A2 submission. In case you weren’t aware, you can (and should) also ask for specific study section assignments in the cover letter and indicate the type of expertise that will be needed to review your proposal in case the SRO needs to find an appropriate ad hoc reviewer)
whimple said
I wonder what the unintended consequences of NHLBI messing with paylines this way will be. It seems a strange thing to implement now, what with the grant format changing so dramatically in January and with the -A2 applications all disappearing on their own after next year.
writedit said
I agree this is a terrible time to introduce these major changes (going cold turkey on cutting of NI breaks, separate paylines based on amendment status). The new impact scores are still a work in progress, and the percentiles won’t mean much for a few more cycles … and next the application length and format radically change. A lot of good science is going to fall through the cracks at NHLBI … either that, or they’ll be making a lot of select pay awards.
Svetlana said
I agree – one wonders why NHBLI bothered with A2’s disappearing. So unneccessary.
It is almost perfect design to add despair and anger to an already capricious mechanism.
Kal said
For those who had an RO3 with NCI, the cutoff score is 30, which is exactly equivalent to the priority score 200 in previous years. So, the formula discussed in this forum, [(X (your current 2 digit score) - 10) x 5] + 100 appears to suit well at least in this case. On a different topic, I would appreciate hearing your opinions/experience – I had an RO1, and am currently debating whether to submit my next grant as a competing continuation or as a brand new RO1. Which approach to follow – any obvious advantages for competing continuations under the current setting? Thanks.
writedit said
You’ll want to go with the Type 2 competing renewal. You will have a higher likelihood of funding, and it is actually good to introduce new aims in a competing renewal, assuming you achieved the prior project aims (or made good progress) and the new aims are derived from the prior work.
You can look at the historic success rate for R01/R01-equivalents by application type (new, renewal, etc.) and by amendment status for just competing renewals. In 2008, the success rate was just 8.3% for an A0 Type 1 application versus 23.7% for an A0 Type 2 (competing renewal). For amended submissions, the success rate went up to 39.2% and 51.3%, respectively.
Therramus said
Hi,
I got a 7.0 percentile on my NHBLI A2 RO-1 and do not qualify for ESI. The payline for the October counsel for A2s was just posted at 7.0 for 2010. My RO-1 will go to the February counsel.
My question is would this app be considered “grayzone” as its precisely at the payline or are grant at payline considered within the zone of “payable” grants ?
Thanks
John M said
You should be funded. I am pretty sure that payline means up to and including the cutoff point.
gankutsuoh said
Ditto.
Therramus said
Thanks for the responses. I guess now the wait.
Kumar said
Like I said I got a 22 percentile on a A0 submission for an RO1 (NHLBI). The council met on October 20. As early as September 25 (weeks before the council meeting) I got a JIT request from the Grants management office of th NHLBI. I was asked again to submit JIT on October 14 (a week before council), as the GM specialist needed some clarification. I took these as signs that I will be funded, but was surprised to see the paylines just posted that A0 will be funded up to 16 percentile. Does any body know why was asked for JIT twice. I was of the impression that JIT request from the IC (not standard mailer from CSR) is an indicator of funding! Can anybody post some thoughts.
In fact, I never got a JIT request in the past and was not funded! Also, when I was close in the past and was not funded, I did not get a JIT request. For example, I got a 23 percentile in 2008 (payline was 15.0), and did not get JIT request, nor funding.
John M said
I suspect that for this first cycle of a new FY, that NHLBI asked for more JITs since they did not know where the cutoff was going to be initially, and so that grants can be picked up later if paylines increase after the budget is finalized.
22% may not get a JIT request for the next council cycle.
writedit said
Usually a JIT request is good news with high likelihood of funding, but POs also want to be sure any potentially fundable application has all administrative issues cleared prior to Council. I’m sure NHLBI’s rejiggering paylines by amendment status left a lot of applications that received JIT requests, like yours, in limbo. NIAID has a nice JIT FAQ.
qpang said
Does anybody know something about “expedited review”? Does it totally depend on your POs? What is “resolve comments”? Do you have to have new data to support your case?
“Resolve comments” is the intention of those policy maker to have your POs help you to improve your proposal before they fund you. Or, “resolve comments” doesn’t matter, only the relationship between you and your POs matters.
Thanks!
John M said
To qpang:
One of my colleagues got an R01 funded on expedited review as a new investigator for NHLBI a couple of years ago. I think that “expedited review” meant was that a revised version that addressed the comments was administratively reviewed without it having to go through the study section again. “resolve comments” means that the issues can be addressed relatively easily–usually without having to provide lots of new data.
Discuss with your PO. I thought you posted previously that your grant was at 19%. If you are an ESI with an A0 application, you should be funded.
qpang said
To John,
I read your previous posts and found you will be definitely funded. Congratulations!
Based on your colleague’s experience, do you know if the expedited review is a one time deal or you can communicate with your PO back and forth several times to finally resolve the comments?
Thanks!
qpang said
Thanks John! Unfortunately mine is A1 application. The regular payline for A1 is 9%. Even though my percentile still lies in the range for expedited review, I don’t know what my chance will be.
In the summary statement, the first paragragh (I assumed it should be the summarized major concerns by program officer) mentioned two major concerns the reviewers had. But in the critiques from each reviewer mentioned one more major concern. Do you know if it is the program officer who wrote the first paragraph of the summary statement? For me, the first two major concerns in the first pargraph are easy to respond. For the third one, it can be addressed but there is a little bit weak support at this moment for me to address. What is your thought? Thanks a lot!
writedit said
The SRO, not the PO, writes the Resume and Summary of Discussion paragraph of the summary statement, and this is where you should concentrate when preparing your response. This paragraph reflects the discussion of the entire study section. If the Summary did not raise the third concern, this might have been resolved during the discussion or identified as not critical to determining the final impact score. However, you might want to ask whether you need to address just the Summary of Discussion comments or the individual critiques as well for this expedited review.
qpang said
Thanks a million, John and Writedit.
It becomes more and more clear to me that I need to talk to my PO. I am so regretful that I did not to call my PO at the time when I first got the summary statement. Hopefully it is not too late.
Thanks again!
Kumar said
I know my colleague, who is an ESI and had 29 percentile got funded by NHLBI this September (2009 funds). The procedure is as follows: if eligible, you will get an email from the NHLBI program officer, asking you to submit the response to crtiques in summary statement. You will be given 5 pages to respond, and you need to answers all the questions, or write a rebuttal if you cannot answer. Basically, you need to write very well, and be polite. Usually, you will get the email about 1-2 weeks after council. I hope this helps.
John M said
Yes, call the PO and discuss. It will help prepare for resubmission and you will get an idea of what to do. This new A1/A2 payline policy is not good in my opinion. I worry that a grant like yours that scores 19% on one cycle and moves up to a 10 or 12% won’t get funded as an A2 even if it has a priority score better than an A1 at 16%. For younger investigators going for their 1st R01, that can kill a career.
qpang said
John, I am confused about your comment. Will my A1 appllication be treated as an A2 after expedited review?
qpang said
The expedited review means not going to study section. The expeditedly-reviewed response should not get scored, so there will not be any percentiles. I doubt it will be treated as an A2 after expedited review.
John M said
I think it is like Kumar said. My understanding of the process is that the response is submitted directly to the PO, not the CSR. If the response is adequate then the PO can “pick up” the grant as a select pay. I have not seen anything yet about this process for NHLBIs for FY2010. I don’t think the expedited review gets scored. Basically the original grant score stands as is, but the grant gets funded on an extension of the payline for the ESI that has “resolved comments”.
I could be wrong about this, so best to take it up directly with the PO and follow their instructions.
qpang said
John, thanks.
I just looked at previou funding paylines for FY2009 and 2008 (http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/funding/policies/archive/operguid09.htm), they all had a definitive payline number for any category of applicants (EI, NI and ESI). But for FY2010, the policy for ESI (5 point above and expedited review for 5-10 points above) seems to me that it is only a guideline at this moment. The definitive payline is not decided yet, probably will be updated throughout the fiscal year. Am I right?
DAP said
Hi, I recieved an email late friday for my JIT on a K submitted 11/08 and reviewed in june 09. I was preparing my resubmitt when I got this wonderful news. Peace
John M said
You should make sure to talk with your PO before cancelling resubmission. Receiving JIT request is great, but not a guarantee of funding. Since the K resubmit deadline is a only few days away, you don’t want to miss it if the funding is not for sure.
Emaderton3 said
I second that. Just resubmit, and if you get funding, you can get your application pulled.
Amit Reddi said
Does anyone have any idea what the rough cut-offs are for funding using the new 10-90 scoring system for the F32 applications? Can you apply a scaling factor and simply calculate the old score, between 100-500?
Thanks
writedit said
If you scroll up through these comments, you’ll see two equations for converting the impact score to the old priority score: one that does a straight 1:1 conversion, one that better matches current scores with former descriptors and scoring ranges. You can look at FY09 paylines for now since most ICs aren’t publishing updated numbers (those who do so at all) and may not until after the CR is converted into a final appropriations bill and signed into law.
mali said
Amit, Have you received scores yet? Ive been checking and havent seen any scores posted on eracommons.
Amit Reddi said
yeah, got scores this morning;
writedit said
From the NLM: Fundable Range. NLM uses Merit Scores rather than percentiles as the basis for award decisions. For experienced investigators, applications with scores 30 or better are the most likely to be funded. For (1) Early Stage investigators and New investigators seeking their first R01 research grant, or (2) applicants for Career Transition (K99) awards, applications with scores of 45 or better will be considered for funding. All grant awards are subject to the availability of funds.
Danss said
Having seen all posts on this site, I felt the NLM payline is quite lenient. I know NLM has its own study section and don’t percentile grants. But is this going to be real? R01 with 40-45 will be considered and might be funded? Any real cases? I am curious because I got a 43 from NLM study section. First time submission and I am a ESI.
writedit said
NLM is quite lenient as they get fewer submissions. This is their FY10 payline, so it sounds as though you are in good shape – though not guaranteed, since they say “will be considered for funding.” Have you had a JIT request? (or were you just reviewed in Oct?) Have you talked with your program officer for a hint as to whether your topic/reviewer comments improve your chances for funding? Good luck with this application and your research program.
Danss said
Thanks, writedit. Yes, mine was reviewed on last week (Nov 6) and I haven’t got the summary statement yet. When should I expect to get the JIT request if there is one? Thanks!
Boyle said
How long NHLBI takes to decide payline for K / F awards after announcing R / P award paylines?
C said
I’d like to know too. I can’t believe I submitted the application in Feb and still have no idea if my K99 (NHLBI) will be funded. The new scoring system makes things worse, as you can’t easily map one score onto the other distribution.
John M said
Probably pretty soon. Deadline for amended R01s was Nov 5 and paylines came out Nov 6. The deadline for revised/resubmitted K grants for the last cycle of FY2010 is Nov 12 so after that they should have a good idea of the number of grants they have for the year. They can then set an initial payline. It may be adjusted later in the year.
Good luck!
CHP said
I had an R01 A2 reviewed at study section this Monday (Im a NI/ESI investigator). It received a 27 with 20%tile. The primary IC is NCI, but it is also listed with NIAID and NIDCR. Is it true that paylines. Questions: 1) Does anyone know definitively what the payline is for NI/ESI at NCI for FY10? 2) Do grants submitted 9/09 get funded under the FY09 or FY10 budget? 3) Since NIDCR doesnt post paylines, is it appropriate to call the appropriate PO for NIDCR and make a preliminary inquiry if they might be interested in funding the grant if NCI cannot? (I assume NIAID will not since those paylines seem to have gone way down lately.
Thank you!
D said
1) I don’t
2) It will funded with 2010 dollars
3)I would suggest talking to your NCI PO first. 20% might make for an NCI NI. If NCI doesn’t sound hopeful then call the NIDCR PO. You are right about NIAID.
Good luck.
CHP said
Thanks! Anyone out there hear about NCI paylines for FY10? Any NI have experience dealing with NIDCR (how do you find out about what they are funding?)
Chris said
Has anyone hard about K01 paylines from NIDDK in the most recent council? I received a priority score of 19 on a June submission and am wondering about my chances for funding. My PO has given me the standard “cautiously optimistic” response. Thanks in advance.
-Chris
Tishka said
I think you have a very good chance. Congrats!
Tishka said
My PO said my 1st submission K01 score is in the “grey zone”. Can someone please tell me what that means?
D said
It means “maybe”. Historically, others with your score have been funded and have not been funded. It depends on unknowns like the final NIH budget, how many others submitted Ks that got better scores than you, what happens in the next review round etc.
Funding is really rank order dependent not score dependent. If your score is a 25 and you are in the top five and they will fund 5 then you are in.
If your score is a 20 and you are NOT in the top five and they will only fund 5 then you are out.
The PO probably knows where you rank but not exactly how many they will fund.
mali said
I wondered if any of you know the range of F32 scores that were funded by NCI with the new scoring system? Is a 31 hopeful or should I through in the towel? Its an A2 so I dont get any more chances.
Jeff said
I’m wondering this also as I got a 32. I submitted to NIGMS (with NCI as a secondary) so we’ll see what happens I guess.
Ak said
The name of grant management specialist (GMS) appeared on my commons page yesterday. Knowing that my appication is most likely within the payline and PO in our conversations, understandably, was always positive but never guaranteed funding- can I contact GMS to confirm the start date. Kindly guide me, as I’m a new investigator.
Thanking in advance for your valuable advice.
DrugMonkey said
can I contact GMS to confirm the start date
You can contact the GMS or the PO but in most cases they are going to tell you nothing other than “Wait until the Notice of Award has been issued.”. That and various versions of re-stating where your grant is in the process..most of which you can deduce from commons anyway.
Sounds from your comment that you are getting way ahead of yourself, though. Have you so much as put in your JIT and Other Support yet? Are you past Council even? If neither of these things are true you sure as heck are not getting even a smell at a “confirmation of the start date”.
Ak said
Thanks Drug Monkey,
Yes I submitted the JIT/other support 4 months back and went through the council as well in September. Let me know what you suggest now….I submitted the grant in Feb and start date in December 1st- 10 %tile.
DrugMonkey said
start date in December 1st
My experience is, and I know you aren’t going to want to hear this
, that the initial funding can slip past the first possible date. Not always, but frequently enough. So don’t be worried if the NGA doesn’t pop up on Nov 30.
With the fact that you have all your ducks lined up, the percentile looks good, etc…I think you just have to wait until Dec 1. If the NGA doesn’t appear, then you can contact the GSA and ask gently if there are any snags with your JIT or OS or something (instead of “wtf is wrong with you people where the hell is my award”, if you see what I’m saying).
The response will be something like “We have a lot of awards and I’m getting to yours next” or “I’ve prepared it and it is waiting for [insert next bureaucratic process]“.
There are, sometimes, snags in which the ball got dropped. This happened to me once where there was supposed to be some cross-checking / sign-off from another entity. It ended up being a SNAFU in which GSA, PO and the other entity all were doing nothing, not following up, thinking that they’d done their part (or so was claimed). It was only my inquiry that identified that the process was stalled and needed some kickstarting to get my award processed….
Ak said
Thanks DrugMonkey,
One last question_ what is GSA? I guess grant management specialist. I also checked for the meaning of SNAFU on google- I got it.
Thanks a ton
ARedd said
Hey Jeff and Mali
Good luck with your scores; I got a 33. (F32 NIGMS) What did your PO’s say?
I asked my PO what this meant in terms of funding, and this was his response; very neutral! Any more clues from your PO’s?
“Initial funding decisions will likely be made in early March with successful applicants notified of a fellowship offer; otherwise applications will remain active until the automatic withdrawal date. Since this is also one of the first funding cycles using the current scoring system, until we have the scores from all the study panels reviewing applications, it’s difficult to estimate how your score ranks. In general, you should also come to no conclusions concerning the probability of funding by National Institute of General Medical Sciences (NIGMS), since the priority score accorded your application is only one of the factors that NIGMS staff considers in making funding decisions.”
Jeff said
Hi ARedd,
Thanks for the feedback! I haven’t gotten a chance to talk to my PO and won’t until next week. Looking at historical funding data for the NIGMS it is interesting how they don’t strictly follow the scores for funding decisions. Did your PO indicate what other factors they take into account when making funding decisions? Also when will they get all of the scores back from all of the study panels?
ARedd said
My PO referred me to the Q and A section of the NIGMS website:
http://www.nigms.nih.gov/Training/IndivPostdoc/PostdocFellowsFAQ.htm
But training potential and time already spent in the sponsor’s lab (which I guess would diminish training potential, are two key criteria, along with relevance of your research to the mission of a specific institute.
My adviser tells me that this is not a slam dunk score, but also one that has a chance. Using the old scoring system, she says she has had students get the F32 with a score as low as 225, (2004ish), which I think would translate to a score of roughly 45 or so according to these plots:
https://loop.nigms.nih.gov/index.php/2009/09/22/the-new-scoring-system/
Ryder7 said
19 score on K08 , submitted in june 09 , yet to receive the summary statement.
Thanks for your response.
D said
Wow. Great score. But I am surprised you do not have an SS yet. Definitely call or E-mail the SRO on this. It has been 5 months!
D said
Ooops. I misread your comment. It was submitted in June. When did the committee meet?
ryder7 said
it was reviewed in Sep / Oct , got the score on 7th Oct..
D said
So, it has been over 5 weeks. That still is a long time from review to SS especially for a 19. I think you have waited long enough to send a nicely worded questioning e-mail to the SRO.
GK said
Hi Ryder7,
which institute is ur proposal at. i too am waiting for the SS for my K08 (NCI) submitted in June. i hope they post it this week.
Waiting said
Hi, is it unusual that NHLBI has posted their R paylines without a word on the K/F paylines? Still waiting to hear about my Feb 09 K99 submission that scored well…
Boyle said
Waiting: I agree. It is really unusual for NHLBI not to post K award payline for FY2010. It is frustrating. I submitted K08 in Feb 09. What was your score on K99?
Waiting said
I got a 29 (first submission). Not a perfect score, but one that may be fundable. I ended up resubmitting the grant a couple of weeks ago just in case, as the comments were very minor.
Boyle said
What did PO say about payline, chance of 29 being funded and about resubmission? In my case PO told me to be “optimistic”. I got 24.
writedit said
Well, NIAID traditionally gets the R01 payline out first, then adds more RPG paylines, and then the other mechanisms, so I assume the same is true at NHLBI. You should be grateful that they publish a payline at all. For now, you should assume the FY09 payline applies (since the NIH is operating under its FY09 budget levels … and the FY10 appropriation only includes something like a 1.45% increase). You can sort of use the conversion equations above to figure out your chance of funding, but even better would be to get an idea of your ranking in the applications received and reviewed thus far for FY10 (ie, the Feb & June submissions). Not many POs will offer that level of detail, though.
md said
I am thinking that those conversion formulas are not accurate for impact scores less than 30 for the following reason. Most of the study members who would rate an application as 1 in the old scoring system (1-5 scale), will use 2 in the new scoring system (1-9 scale). They will only use 1 for outstanding applications which won’t be many (perhaps 1-2%). Based on this argument, for competitive applications with impact score between 20-30, I will propose the following formula: Impact x 10 / 1.8 = ?
Kal said
I want to submit my RC1 as an R21 for Feb 2010 cycle. I know it will be a different grant mechanism, but can someone tell if the specific aims can remain same or do I need to alter them? Would this be a problem? Would they say this grant has been reviewed before and just not send it for review? The statement at the NIH website are a bit confusing as it says, previously reviewed grants cannot be sumitted etc. Thanks for your help.
D said
You can do exactly what you propose. When you change mechanism (e.g., RC1 to R21 to R01) it counts as a first time submission even if it is otherwise identical. What I am wondering is why you are submitting it as an R21? Why not submit as an R01? Nothing I have seen suggests that R21s are any easier to get than an R01.
I think you should go for the R01 if possible.
Luke said
Has anyone hard about R21 paylines from NIAID in the most recent council? Thanks in advance.
D said
No official word yet. But, going from last years pay line of 137 and the rough conversation formulas from Writedit et al I would say you need under a 20 to even have a chance of funding this year.
Switzer said
It has been mentioned that ‘NIAID is hoping to go up 4 pts to the 10th percentile’ for established. What is the expectation (if any) for the NIAID ESI (currently at 10%)?
Do we know how many more grants were submitted in Oct/Nov?
I’m an ESI with a 22 priority/13% on my A2.
D said
I think a 4% differential between established and NI/ESI will remain. So, you are on the bubble.
In case you are on the wrong side of the bubble, if I were you, I would start talking to my PO about a select pay award (funding out of order). It is still early but it can’t hurt.
The scuttlebutt is that CSR received ~10-15% more apps than usual. No word on whether this is spread across all of the institutes or focused on just a few.
qijin said
Hello,
What estimated percentile will a NINDS K99 score of 60 be? (2009 July cycle)
Thanks.
writedit said
Well, there won’t be a percentile, but, unfortunately, that score probably won’t be competitive for funding. Your program officer can provide more insight, but I would recommend you start working on your resubmission.
md said
For your reference I had a 54 for an R21 from the BCHI study group, which received a percentile of 49.
John M said
Anyone received an NGA from NHLBI for Dec 1 start date grants yet? The score on my A1 R01 reviewed in June for Oct council that is better than the posted paylines (for ESI) and my PO won’t commit to saying that funding is definite. Responded to my email inquiry: “there are still some variable discussions going on about the paylines. You are on the list, but can’t say anything definite”.
D said
That is an interesting issue. Sounds like NHLBI wasn’t conservative enough with their paylines and have more grants to fund than $s available.
Kumar said
D: NHLBI has suggested posted revised paylines for A1 and A2s, which is 12 and 10 for RO1s. The Aos have remained at 16. While this is a good news for A1s and A2s, does any one know why Aos have not gone up? Is there a chance that Aos will go up after the budget passes? The NHLBUI website keeps saying that their new policy will help avoid re-submissions as they want to fund more Aos. But 16 percentile for A0 is not that much higher than A1 (12). In fact, the NHLBI payline for all grants was 15 last year. So, since 2010 budget is expected to somewhat higher than 2009, should not they be paying Aos for up to atleast 20-22 percentile? Does any body have any thoughts?
John M said
I suspect it is push back form established investigators that have A1 or A2 applications that scored well the first time around but now have no chance with single digit paylines for resubmitted apps. I know some senior PIs at my institution that have been arguing with NHLBI about the unintended effects of the policy. Personally, I agree with them. Not funding a grant at 10%, which has a priority score better than 1/3 of the A0 grants that are better than the payline doesn’t make sense.
D said
I forgot about the NHLBI differential paylines. John M’s comment makes a lot of sense. But, I can’t believe that no one at NHLBI foresaw the complaints coming.
Sied said
Has anyone heard about the paylines for the S10’s? The impact scores were released this week and we are on the fence and a little nervous.
asimon said
Does anyone know what percent of K applications are triaged or streamlined (go unscored)? Is it 50%? What is the cutoff for NIAID?
Thanks.
D said
For NIAID it is ~50% triaged. Even worse they only fund a few each round and then for only 3 years. (http://www.niaid.nih.gov/ncn/sop/pathway.htm). In fact, I bet it is easier to get an R01 than a K99/R00 at NIAID. Of course if you are a post-doc that doesn’t help you much.
D said
Unless you are at one of those tricky schools that “promote” senior post-docs to “research assistant professors” so that they can apply for R01s and get jobs elsewhere.
asimon said
Thanks, D. Are you certain the bottom 50% of K awards (K01, K08, and K23s) are triaged for NIAID? That seems a lot. I thought it would be lower, like the bottom 20% or 30%. Thanks for your insight.
D said
I should have been clearer. They try to triage ~50% of all Ks. So, that could mean that no K99s are triaged or they all are or somewhere in bewtween. It probably varies a lot depending on the study section. It probably varies a lot each cycle. The NIAID training officer should have more insight.
whimple said
D, I don’t think it is possible for a currently unfunded research assistant professor to get an R01 funded. The study sections are wise to this double-dipping and squash these applications (correctly) on the basis of lack of independence.
D said
I don’t know how common it is but I have seen it tried many times and I know of at least one success. Plus, another was on the bubble and had a good chance of being funded. I don’t remember either study section being more or less critical because of this “trick.”
Actually, it is interesting to watch how the community evolves to adapt to a new environment.
D said
One more note. I don’t think this is a bad thing even though I called it a trick. Since so many schools insist on only hiring junior faculty who have money this is a natural response. More schools should consider allowing it for their senior post-docs.
Emaderton3 said
Actually, I would tend to disagree. I am at a medical center, and many research assistant professors are waiting to score a R01 in order to get promoted to assistant professor. They are currently funded by the lab that they are in (and many have gotten the promotion to this position from post-doc). This appears to be the norm, and I have seen it at other institutions as well. As far as getting funded, that may be another story, but now with the “breaks” for new PI’s it may be a bit easier.
Ak said
Has anyone received NGA from any ICs. Your input will be helpful.
Thanks
Kal said
I keep hearing separate paylines based on amendment status (A0, A1, A2)- Is NHLBI the only institute which has done this? Are other institutes to follow this trend soon and would it be applied for other grant mechanisms (R21, R03s etc.). Thanks for your reply.
writedit said
To the best of my knowledge, NHLBI is the only one to state its policy, unless NCI or any other IC has also done so in advance in major journals in the field. I expect other ICs to follow suit eventually though.
Gman said
My R01 A01 revision was reviewed at NINDS in October, 2009 and received 22% percentile and a priority score of 25. I have ESI and NI status. I just received one of those boiler plate letters from the NINDS stating that funding within this range for an ESI/NI was “highly likely”. I’d like to take the letter at face value but I am guessing that I’ll simply have to wait until council meets in February, 2010 to be sure. In the meantime, I’ve submitted the A02 version of the grant as the comments on the grant were minor. Does anyone have any thoughts on my chances of actually getting a positive funding decision in February, 2010 with NINDS?
Pandora said
NHBLI just increased the payline on A1 and A2 revisions to 12 % and 10 % respectively. They had been posted at 7 % and 9 % for just 2 weeks.
First, anyone have thoughts on the reason for this – its not as if something material such as congress passing the HHS 2010 budget has happened ?
Second, any views on whether these levels will hold or perhaps move even higher for A1s and A2s will hold over fy 2010 ?